[MichaelH]

this is a dumb question, but what is the little crosshair with the little ball going crazy thing on the video is that the g's and elevation thing?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by MichaelH

this is a dumb question, but what is the little crosshair with the little ball going crazy thing on the video is that the g's and elevation thing?

That displays G forces, the white ring is 1g, you have to kinda guess after that but if you look at some other in car testing, you can get the idea where the ZL1 is at. If the ball moves up, that means the car is braking, left, right.. the car is turning in that direction and down means acceleration. That is not a dumb question, usually they have an actual reading with that meter but one wasn't provided.

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by Stew

Dude, seriously? Get over it. i like Thepills posts. They are informative, thought out, and just the facts. he has also posted some great info about the next gen Chevy smallblocks too.

That is all.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Stew

Dude, seriously? Get over it. i like Thepills posts. They are informative, thought out, and just the facts. he has also posted some great info about the next gen Chevy smallblocks too.

LOL!! wut, I think your confusing speculations based on opinions as facts.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

calm down the red mustang was indeed testing in the same time frame as the zl1, thePill is just being to fanatical. something tells me the mustang will have the last laugh, SVT is very secretive and rarely falls for this new lap times thing every manufacturer is doing today.

Its all speculation right now, but I highly doubt ford will have the last laugh when the HP wars are over. Generaly speaking GM > Ford when it comes to high performance vehicles. No doubt ford will respond, but so will GM. Its only a matter of time before the LS9 hits the camaro in some kind of special edition form.

[thePill]

Everyone knows the 2013 GT500 is coming to beat the 2012 ZL1, even Scott himself said this not too long ago on this very forum. Even Jim Farley (even though he is a little aggressive) has already guaranteed that the new SVT car will "annihilate the competition". Baseball bats and the F word aside, he has a pretty good idea where the product stands and I believe Team Camaro and GM do as well...

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by truth411

Its all speculation right now, but I highly doubt ford will have the last laugh when the HP wars are over. Generaly speaking GM > Ford when it comes to high performance vehicles. No doubt ford will respond, but so will GM. Its only a matter of time before the LS9 hits the camaro in some kind of special edition form.

Because of the Corvette and Ford no longer having a sports car, yes. Because of powerplants, not for the past 7-8 years. Ford has a history of going overboard with powerplants since the 03 cobra. The DOHC 5.4 modular in the 2005 Ford GT topped anything in GM's, and pretty much everybody else's, arsenal until the ls9 came around and even then the 5.4 has seen far higher power outputs on the stock block than the ls9. At some point it's not going to be about power anymore. The safe limit of the 5.4 alone is way beyond what will ever be put in a production vehicle (1,000+ hp) and although I know less about the ls9, I assume it's the same way. No matter what GM builds it will not be out of the safe range of the 5.4(now 5.8) and I doubt Ford will be able to bump power enough to realistically be out of range of the ls9. The numbers would just have to be stupid high. It's going to be about chassis and design execution. The power plant is going to be the least important imo. The ZL1 is going to be an absolute monster that will be very tough to top, but I wouldn't count Ford out. The fact they even think it's remotely necessary to revise the already unbelievably stout 5.4 tells me they're going overboard again. Last time that happened stock 03 cobra owners were hunting c5 vettes.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by thePill

It is 5-6 seconds from the start, and another 6-8 seconds throughout the first section, depending on the car... The flying lap start can also be faster in some cars than others, sometimes cars start out at 50mph, sometimes 80. This was initially why the stop start was popular for manufactures because people timing the cars on the Bridge to Gantry wasn't sure how much a stop start took off from the time.. Individual sources were never close enough to the official time so everyone timing the cars were wrong now, the times are closer to the originals however, the the times still were off...

Interesting...

[MichaelH]

Originally Posted by thePill

That displays G forces, the white ring is 1g, you have to kinda guess after that but if you look at some other in car testing, you can get the idea where the ZL1 is at. If the ball moves up, that means the car is braking, left, right.. the car is turning in that direction and down means acceleration. That is not a dumb question, usually they have an actual reading with that meter but one wasn't provided.

ooo ok thank you i'v never done auto cross racing so i didnt know but thanks again

[truth411]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Because of the Corvette and Ford no longer having a sports car, yes. Because of powerplants, not for the past 7-8 years. Ford has a history of going overboard with powerplants since the 03 cobra. The DOHC 5.4 modular in the 2005 Ford GT topped anything in GM's, and pretty much everybody else's, arsenal until the ls9 came around and even then the 5.4 has seen far higher power outputs on the stock block than the ls9. At some point it's not going to be about power anymore. The safe limit of the 5.4 alone is way beyond what will ever be put in a production vehicle (1,000+ hp) and although I know less about the ls9, I assume it's the same way. No matter what GM builds it will not be out of the safe range of the 5.4(now 5.8) and I doubt Ford will be able to bump power enough to realistically be out of range of the ls9. The numbers would just have to be stupid high. It's going to be about chassis and design execution. The power plant is going to be the least important imo. The ZL1 is going to be an absolute monster that will be very tough to top, but I wouldn't count Ford out. The fact they even think it's remotely necessary to revise the already unbelievably stout 5.4 tells me they're going overboard again. Last time that happened stock 03 cobra owners were hunting c5 vettes.

Exactly its not just about HP, its also about chasis and design execution which is why i say generally speaking when it comes to performance vehicles GM > FORD I.E... CTS-V, G8 GXP, Z06, ZR1, ZL1 etc... Hell GM's magna ride is 10 years ahead of its time imo, ferrari uses the same tech after GM pioneered it. I think when it comes to the camaro chasis there's more headroom for potential, just my opinion though. The Ford GT was slower than the C6 Z06 that's a great example.

[TaylorRyanSS]

If Ford had a Corvette competitor, like the Ford GT, they would not be making the Mustang so powerful. GM can't make the Camaro too powerful without stepping on the Corvettes toes. The Corvette is Chevy's flagship car. The GT500 is Fords right now so they have no limit. In 10 years the base GT500 is going to have 750 hp if Ford doesn't make a new Ford GT type car.

[Txmxracer]

1) I also like thePill's posts because they are informative and grammatically correct.
2) I also believe the next GT500 will beat out the ZL1; that is the reason why they are making the car to begin with. Then the ZL1 will have some revisions and become top dog again, and then the Mustang, and so on. The only thing that could prohibit the Camaro's growth is the Corvette. Personally, I think the Corvette needs to become a more exclusive super car. I am a little radical in my thinking but make the Z06 the slowest and cheapest Vette there is, and build up from there. Chevy could insert a cheaper yet sporty 2-seater into their line up with a car similar to the Sky and the Solstice for people in that market. Then the Camaro won't have any toes that they could possibly step on.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Txmxracer

1) I also like thePill's posts because they are informative and grammatically correct.
2) I also believe the next GT500 will beat out the ZL1; that is the reason why they are making the car to begin with. Then the ZL1 will have some revisions and become top dog again, and then the Mustang, and so on. The only thing that could prohibit the Camaro's growth is the Corvette.

Thanks man, I appreciate that... Now, I will tell you what I dug up today on this 5.8. I hear, but in no way confirmed that the new 5.8 will be upgraded from the 5.4 in the same fashion that the 5.0 was upgraded from the 4.6. That means that in order to save money, Ford will be using most of the 5.4s tooling in order to make pretty much a brand new engine (Coyote Long Stroke possibly). When the 5.0 was conceived, it used most of the 4.6s existing tooling, Ford eliminated unneeded mass with block webbing and used what they could from the 4.6... ended up being very little. This is why the 5.0 and 4.6 are almost exactly the same weight even though the TiVCT unit was added, stronger block but physically smaller dimensions.

SVT, and I have all the reason to believe this, understands that horsepower and torque is not the only answer in this battle. I have no word on suspension systems and tires yet but the cheapest, most feasible option would be to use the same Ford Racing parts that the GT350 used. This Ford Racing equipped GT350 goes 0-60 in 3.7, 1/4 mile in 12 flat at 121, 1.05g and only used Goodyear 255fr/285rr 19"s, produced 524hp/490tq and weighed 3816lbs. What made the car handle better/better traction, it isn't underrated, it dyno'd at 473hp... It isn't the Goodyears... Definitely not the weight. It was a combination of things however, the aggressive suspension system helped dramatically. The twins were seen using 19" wheels on all four corners and the only way you would want to run a smaller diameter wheel is because you need the clearance for some extra width and, 19 inch tires of similar profiles will spin faster using the same 3.73s.. and who knows, maybe this new 5.8 will use a beefy MT82 to save some money and really get those tires turning... SVT knows they need more traction, simply adding suspension would be enough, adding more tire and perhaps some Corsa's would really be something....

It is funny you bring up the conflict between the Corvette and the Camaro. The top dog ZR1 produces 638hp... A great strategy for Ford would be to bump their horsepower right up next to the ZR1 and challenge the Camaro to do the same. Of course GM would have nothing of this and surely bump the Vette eventually, but now they are working on two cars just because of the SVT Mustang, one is running from it, the other is chasing it... Anyone I see comparing a Mustang to a Corvette is usually laughed at by both sides and Ford wants nothing to do with the Corvette as far as the Mustang is concerned. This does put Chevrolet in a position. The Camaro wants to beat the Mustang but has to do so without beating the Corvette, it is actually quite brilliant.

Edit: As for the ZL1, I am sure Chevrolet will make improvements in 2013 and that car will probably put the 2012 ZL1 to shame. Regarding the ZL1s Nurburgring time, how about we eliminate the full roll cage and run the car again.. Unless Chevrolet plans to sell the car with the cage in it, I wouldn't have released the lap time until the car was without one. Imagine the rigidity that a simple strut tower brace or sub frame connectors add, then imagine tying the entire interior together with a roll cage. Weight would be increased, interior has to be stripped.. but if you really think about it, a roll cage increases rigidity by 100%, and if the figure could go beyond that, I am sure it would. The 2011 Mustang increased it chassis rigidity buy like 3-4% buy using some suspension tricks and cross bar, the Camaro convertible also had integrated structure reinforcement as all convertibles do. If you were do remove that structure, the car would not be running a mid 7 minute lap and according to the SCCA and NASA the extra weight gained by a cage is completely offset by the increased handling that a cage provides. How many Ring runs were done with cars that used cages? It is a simple trick for simple minds... and Ford is doing this too however, they certainly won't go public with an "official" lap time on a pre-production car with a roll cage. To put it simply, these cars will not replicate these times without the added structure. It is a great testing tool and provides protection for the driver but if the GT500 and ZL1 is already heavy cars to begin with, and other cars run faster laps without a cage... the only logical explanation is that the car(s) lacked the support and needed it. What is the difference between a Boss 302 LS and a Boss 302R? about 150lbs and a full roll cage and the Boss 302R puts about 6-7 seconds on the LS at a small track (3 minute laps), over 8 minutes, this could be 15-17 seconds...

[4DoorRocket]

That's great. I love the GT500. I look forward to seeing what kind of #'s it puts out. An upgraded suspension and stickier/wider tires, combined with it's newly IRS, will make it beastly, considering it will be making 630-650 horsepower. So I wouldn't be counting it out. After all, it is an SVT product and everyone knows the kind of cars they can put out.

As for the time around the "Burg"...

It laid down a quick time, but obviously, the conditions were perfect. No way that car beats out the ZR1 around there. That's why I hate when they do lap times. The conditions are never the same nor are the drivers.

Either way, these horsepower wars should be fun and the cars should be both fun to drive.