[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by gosutag
I've always wondered how to brake properly in place of ABS?

Originally Posted by Number 3

It's been demonstrated many times that you can't out brake ABS. I think a true professional can do it but most of us folks that don't have to brake a car going into a corner for a living can't.

Once you've locked them up, most times the ABS can do a better job. Most times, because there are at least a couple of situations where it probably won't.

The trick is to get just shy of lockup very quickly and (probably just as importantly) smoothly without going too far. To STOMP with uncontrolled pedal force is to do it wrong.

Besides, if you are on a public road and it's not wet/slippery/snowing/freezing and you get into the ABS, you are probably driving beyond way beyond what you should be.

Yes and no. Aside from accident avoidance it's useful to stay at least semi-"current" with what really hard braking is like. Which you'd acquire with due regard to other traffic (preferably nobody else around). Losing the panic reaction lets you sense what else is going on, that maybe you could have squeezed the brake pedal down a little harder or ramped up the pedal force a little quicker. Or that you were too hasty that time (the ABS pulsed) and you'd need to dial something back a little.

My take is that if you're going to drive a car with exceptional performance you owe it to yourself to upgrade your driving skills to suit.


Norm

[GTIanZ28]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

My take is that if you're going to drive a car with exceptional performance you owe it to yourself to upgrade your driving skills to suit.


Norm

This was discussed somewhere on here previously. Probably in one of the crash threads.

A few of us were in agreement that there should be tiered drivers licenses; just like there are with Motorcycles. A few different classifications for passenger vehicles. Why shouldn't we be expected to complete a "performance driving school" and testing in order to drive high performance sports cars?

1. Vehicle size and weight (why should a normal drivers license be ok for those monstrous RV's?)
2. Engine size / Power - Giving a 17 year old the keys to many modern performance cars is a recipe for disaster.

Cars may have improved dramatically in performance and safety over the years, but the average driver has not.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GTIanZ28

This was discussed somewhere on here previously. Probably in one of the crash threads.

A few of us were in agreement that there should be tiered drivers licenses; just like there are with Motorcycles. A few different classifications for passenger vehicles. Why shouldn't we be expected to complete a "performance driving school" and testing in order to drive high performance sports cars?

1. Vehicle size and weight (why should a normal drivers license be ok for those monstrous RV's?)
2. Engine size / Power - Giving a 17 year old the keys to many modern performance cars is a recipe for disaster.

Cars may have improved dramatically in performance and safety over the years, but the average driver has not.

If anything, they've gotten worse, since the mass-use of cell phones, and are getting even worse, thanks to the overabundance of the crash avoidance equipment...

...If I see one more Kia commercial touting how it's okay that you weren't paying attention to the road because they installed auto brakes...

[Meteorma]

Why wouldn't you learn your car first before acting crazy, you are the guys you read about that killed a family in a mini van

[jrs580]

No one was around, he was learning the car

[TopHatPlus]

Originally Posted by Meteorma

Why wouldn't you learn your car first before acting crazy, you are the guys you read about that killed a family in a mini van

don't agree with this.

I have a 2SS and the thing scares the hell out of me, i keeps action control on and i rarely play with this car.

ITs EXTREMELY honourable for the OP to post this, man up, and learn.

Thank you for postings

No drugs, alcohol, cell phones, or road head were involved in this accident, and no one was hurt...

Fix the car, and keep enjoying it!

[mekirk2]

Originally Posted by CAM-FIFTY

Can you help me understand (seriously, as I'm novice to it) how turning traction and stability control off and learning how to slide is a 'needed' or 'necessary' skill? I understand 'back in time' when car technologies were not as advanced as they are now and you needed to learn counter actions if you slide in bad weather. But with the better winter tires and better stability control technologies integrated into the cars, whats the point now?

Nannies also wont help you when you have a blow out and the car gets sideways because of it. Skid control is not something you can learn without skidding. If you grow up riding four wheelers or playing in muddy fields, it comes naturally. If not, the only way to learn how to react is to put yourself in that situation on purpose. It will let you get an idea of what a skid 'feels' like so that you can react as early in the skid as possible.

I used to take people into a parking lot on a rainy day and pull the hand brake to let them experience a skid. It is a skill that can not only save you from a wreck, but also save your life.

[Software Guy]

Nannies have their place certainly, but the won't save you every time.

It could be worse though.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthu...tandhp#image=1

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by CAM-FIFTY

Can you help me understand (seriously, as I'm novice to it) how turning traction and stability control off and learning how to slide is a 'needed' or 'necessary' skill?

It's not like anybody is encouraging people to go out and practice to become the next Formula Drift champion here. But there is value in having some of your own gut-level awareness of what it feels like to be less than completely stuck down to the road - but not out of control either. For one thing, you'll tend to stay calmer if it should ever happen "for real", and you'll be more apt to do the right thing if you've already "been there" in a couple of practice sessions. FWIW, I give myself a few "refresher courses" in the neighborhood swimming pool parking lot each winter, just a few minutes at a time being enough at my age.

Perhaps the most important part is being able to recognize when you're getting out near the limit of grip before you simply blow right through it.

If you're driving a car with serious performance available, there is greater potential that at some point you will find yourself about to run out of grip at one or more corners of the car. Have some awareness of this, it's not a video game.

I understand 'back in time' when car technologies were not as advanced as they are now and you needed to learn counter actions if you slide in bad weather. But with the better winter tires and better stability control technologies integrated into the cars, whats the point now?

With all of the advances in tire and car technologies we've seen over the past 60 years or so, the basic way that tires "behave" still hasn't changed - slip angle curves still flatten out as their peaks are approached and drop off if the peak gets passed, and curves by definition are analog in nature. Nannies, at least in current form, are digitally either 'off' or 'on', sometimes with user control via modes over where the 'on' intervention occurs.

It may be a moot point whether any given nanny calibration will let you sample the feel of the car as it transitions from "stuck down" to "a little slide-y", and I think the bigger issue is that the presence of these nannies actually discourages people from even trying to perceive any of the transition between the two.

A "we'll just let the nannies do their thing if necessary" mindset ends up replacing general awareness by the driver of how much grip he's got to work with, and smoothness at the controls can get sacrificed to a stomp/stab/steer&hope technique because the nannies are more likely to let a driver get away with such sloppy driving techniques. Having a muscle car mentality - engine-, power-, noise-, and acceleration-centric - kind of becomes you working against yourself.

As I understand it, at least some HPDE track day instructors pay attention to how frequently a student trips any dash traction or stability control light and use that as part of their basis for recommending said student's advancement or holding back. Just like in street driving except that you're driving a lot harder, no lights getting tripped is good, more = something about the driving needs work.


Norm

[CAM-FIFTY]

Good feedback/discussion...definitely learned a new perspective of handling this car. The thing I couldn't wrap my head around was when I read folks favoring turning all these controls off (see pg 3), that is just plain wrong IMO.

In my years of living here in New England, I have had my fair share of driving in snow/blizzards. Only one winter in my lifetime I had my car's stability assist kick in multiple times and I took it in to dealer for check up, problem was the close to worn out rear tires.

[Quiksilver16ss]

My car controls so differently now that it's cooled off here in NC especially at night. Nannies on and i barely hit it at a stop light and my M6 1st gear just spins the tires with ease. I kno why they are called summer tires now! Fun for burnouts but I wouldn't dare do any drag racing with em. Cold pavement, summer tires, and colder air .... great combo for disaster if u hit the traction button twice!!

[BlueCamaro6]

Glad you are okay. I handle insurance claims and deal with this situation multiple times a day, wrecked vehicles. Stuff happens and it sounds like you learned from your mistake. Wishing your Camaro a fast recovery.