[cellsafemode]

People suck at driving and are generally stupid

Trucks and SUV's are the perfect vehicles for poor (ability) drivers or overcompensators who need to be super high to "see", get in and out of because they're too damn fat to deal with low car-type seating, and to handle the lugging around of a litter of kids if they have them or their own belongings if they dont (since they likely rent and move every year) or just need something huge to help their fragile male ego.

Nothing we can suggest or think of is going to help cars and more specifically, enthusiast cars. Driving is a necessity for most people, not a pleasure. Driving is a skill, and thus most peeople aren't good at it. This demands that drivers be removed from the equation of driving as much as possible. So cars that cater to the driver being a good driver are going to go extinct. It's obvious and simple math. The golden age is gone. We'll see a continued shift towards utilitarian car purchases but I think even more will move towards rental and ride hailing services until the different brands will do what airlines did coming out of the 60's and 70's and consolidate down to maybe less than a handful. I'm pretty sure we'll see most of that within the next couple decades in the US and western europe.

The nail will come when we start mandating speed caps based on street level speed limits via always connected cars and finally outlaw all modification of vehicles due to "safety" concerns and pollution concerns and data tracking (Since traffic stops will be outlawed ... your car will be what enforces traffic laws when it comes to speed). They're easing us into that every year already.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The correct answer is sounds like Tesla’s sales model is more for everyone!

Tesla was having a hard time establishing their stores due to pushback from the National Automobile Dealer’s Association (NADA). There are actually dealer franchise laws in every state protecting car dealerships and preventing the company producing the cars from selling directly. Now, that goes against everything capitalism stands for. Remember when GM axed Oldsmobile? They got their pants sued off by all the dealers. Why? How is GM (or ANY car company) responsible for the livelihood of people who have nothing to do with the company? They should have all had to live with it.

I mean, it’s like GM should sue Americans for not buying more Camaros!

I mean, Tesla is still struggling to turn a profit after all these years. Should tell you something about why no one else bothers with this model. IMO that's what Capitalism is all about. If your business model makes money, it's a good business model.

Direct sales have already been tried by various manufacturers way back in the days. In the end, they figured out that they should just focus more on the engineering and production side and let someone else deal with the sales side, hence the dealer system we see today. Maybe times have changed, but honestly, I don't see a piece of paper with order information on it being that different from ordering a car from the Internet.

And I mean, passenger vehicles aren't the only things running on a dealer model. Most heavy equipment does as well. You don't buy a CAT dozer or whatever from CAT direct. You buy it from Finning and have Finning come look at it when it has trouble. Finning then uses this info to send feedback to CAT so their engineers can figure stuff out.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

People suck at driving and are generally stupid

Trucks and SUV's are the perfect vehicles for poor (ability) drivers or overcompensators who need to be super high to "see", get in and out of because they're too damn fat to deal with low car-type seating, and to handle the lugging around of a litter of kids if they have them or their own belongings if they dont (since they likely rent and move every year) or just need something huge to help their fragile male ego.

Nothing we can suggest or think of is going to help cars and more specifically, enthusiast cars. Driving is a necessity for most people, not a pleasure. Driving is a skill, and thus most peeople aren't good at it. This demands that drivers be removed from the equation of driving as much as possible. So cars that cater to the driver being a good driver are going to go extinct. It's obvious and simple math. The golden age is gone. We'll see a continued shift towards utilitarian car purchases but I think even more will move towards rental and ride hailing services until the different brands will do what airlines did coming out of the 60's and 70's and consolidate down to maybe less than a handful. I'm pretty sure we'll see most of that within the next couple decades in the US and western europe.

The nail will come when we start mandating speed caps based on street level speed limits via always connected cars and finally outlaw all modification of vehicles due to "safety" concerns and pollution concerns and data tracking (Since traffic stops will be outlawed ... your car will be what enforces traffic laws when it comes to speed). They're easing us into that every year already.

You solved the mystery, everyone can go home now.

But yeah, for real, V8 RWD MT cars are going to be a hard combination to come by in the future. Enjoy it while you can...

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I mean, Tesla is still struggling to turn a profit after all these years. Should tell you something about why no one else bothers with this model.

Direct sales have already been tried by various manufacturers way back in the days. In the end, they figured out that they should just focus more on the engineering and production side and let someone else deal with the sales side, hence the dealer system we see today. Maybe times have changed, but honestly, I don't see a piece of paper with order information on it being that different from ordering a car from the Internet.

And I mean, passenger vehicles aren't the only things running on a dealer model. Most heavy equipment does as well. You don't buy a CAT dozer or whatever from CAT direct. You buy it from Finning and have Finning come look at it when it has trouble. Finning then uses this info to send feedback to CAT so their engineers can figure stuff out.

1. tesla's profits have nothing to do with direct sales and more to do with their high R&D costs and having to spend a lot of money creating factories and starting the product supply chains that dont exist for them already.

2. heavy equipment is usually rented, not purchased because they're not something you need all the time and they're expensive and because they're heavy equipment, need specialized expert maintenance.

2b. That's not to say that how they're managed is ideal .. Like farming equipment, being saddled with "dealers" is more about controlling the product even after the sale. That's not in the benefit of the purchaser. Nothing about the dealer system is there to benefit the purchaser. Any time you have to legally mandate a middle man should throw a red flag up. A proper job where you fulfill a need people want, shouldn't require laws to keep anyone from putting you out of business by filling the public need better.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro is as good as dead. GM isn’t doing anything to keep it relevant.

If the Camaro is dead I will make mine last as long as possible which shouldn't be too hard since it only has 1,600ish miles in almost 5 months of ownership so it will take forever for my Camaro to hit 100k. When I want to get another car in addition to the Camaro (not selling my Camaro ever if I can help it) there is my second choice the Challenger. Dodge seems to want that to stay they just announced an 807 hp production model trim today.

[shaffe]

Mustang took a bigger hit than Camaro did from Q1 to Q2 so Camaro has that going fo rit.

Either way bad numbers all around.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro is as good as dead. GM isn’t doing anything to keep it relevant.

But if you think about it they really need it to stay around to help with Cadillac. If camaro dies that would pretty much kill the CT4/5 Unless they have something else up their sleeve to go on AlphaII that we don't know about. I think CT4/5 was combined just over 3k cars for Q2. That plant can't survive on that

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I mean, Tesla is still struggling to turn a profit after all these years. Should tell you something about why no one else bothers with this model. IMO that's what Capitalism is all about. If your business model makes money, it's a good business model.

It has absolutely nothing to do with their sales model. They make only electric cars. Their customer base is narrowed signficantly. That eliminates about 90% of the American public from their potential sales base.

Capitalism does not hold businesses hostage to one and only one business model. That's what the NADA has done. The're like the union for car dealerships. If your model works for this company, but that company wants to try something different, they should absolutely be allowed to try it.

I guarantee you this: If the big, major car companies in the world today (GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, MB, Hyundai/Kia) were to convert to direct sales, and with that a reduction in the sticker price of all of their cars by at least 15% (which is what dealers make on every sale - don't let them tell you otherwise), you will see sales go through the roof. And a much happier customer base.

[90503]

If a GM model has lousy sales numbers, it will likely stay in production, like all the Caddys and Camaro...

If the sales numbers are moderate to good, it will likely get cancelled, like Cruze, Impala, and soon to be discontinued Malibu.

Camaro will stay in production until they can come up with a Chinese or Mexico model to replace it.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

It has absolutely nothing to do with their sales model. They make only electric cars. Their customer base is narrowed signficantly. That eliminates about 90% of the American public from their potential sales base.

Capitalism does not hold businesses hostage to one and only one business model. That's what the NADA has done. The're like the union for car dealerships. If your model works for this company, but that company wants to try something different, they should absolutely be allowed to try it.

I guarantee you this: If the big, major car companies in the world today (GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, MB, Hyundai/Kia) were to convert to direct sales, and with that a reduction in the sticker price of all of their cars by at least 15% (which is what dealers make on every sale - don't let them tell you otherwise), you will see sales go through the roof. And a much happier customer base.

I disagree. For quite a while, at least. The price reductions would have to be MASSIVE to stimulate enough sales to offset the losses from dealing with inventory on the lots.

You think it sucks now to not be able to get cars optioned the way you want? Wait until we're back to the days of "you can have any color you want as long as it's black." You will either order your car and wait WEEKS (if not months) to get it, or you will buy something from the local used car dealer. The manufacturers do not have the real estate to store cars that are built and waiting to be purchased.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

and with that a reduction in the sticker price of all of their cars by at least 15% (which is what dealers make on every sale - don't let them tell you otherwise), you will see sales go through the roof. And a much happier customer base.

Man, I wish that were true!!

Everyone always says that manufacturers should do this. But, who handles all of the financing and out of warranty repairs? What about trade-ins?

It's probably not going to happen in our lifetimes. There are 4 very powerful letters that will keep direct sales from ever happening....NADA.

Besides, I'm not really sure that the automakers want to do it that way.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Efi69Cam

Camaro outsells it’s Cadillac platform mates. That’s probably not good for the future of gm rwd cars in general.

With the ATS and CTS, the Camaro outsold both combined for a while.

Too early tell with these numbers as the all new CT4 just launched and the CT5 has only been out a few months.

But all 3 selling badly does not bode well for LGR.

Hope China keeps buying Cadillac sedans.

Unlike 2001, the Camaro has 2 other cars to share the plant costs. So it likely soldiers on until it needs capital for a refresh or emissions or safety. The like 2001, it will be out.

Still holding out for the EV. May not have the Camaro name but it may have the Camaro spirit.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Man, I wish that were true!!

Everyone always says that manufacturers should do this. But, who handles all of the financing and out of warranty repairs? What about trade-ins?

It's probably not going to happen in our lifetimes. There are 4 very powerful letters that will keep direct sales from ever happening....NADA.

Besides, I'm not really sure that the automakers want to do it that way.

That was my question as well, because 99% of the time I trade in a vehicle when purchasing a new vehicle.

And if there are no dealers wouldn't that mean all vehicles would be sold at MSRP?

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That was my question as well, because 99% of the time I trade in a vehicle when purchasing a new vehicle.

And if there are no dealers wouldn't that mean all vehicles would be sold at MSRP?

MSRP as it exists today is factoring in dealers existing.

MSRP if dealers weren't mandated would be very different.


Car dealerships would still exist in anyone's potential reality. The difference those against dealerships are saying is whether or not they would be legally mandated to exist and disallow anyone selling directly.

You'd still sell your car to a dealership because used car dealerships would still serve a purpose in the alternate reality where car manufacturers can sell directly.



Also, regarding tesla's narrow customer base. It's not as narrow as the camaro's apparently. The electric car market just for tesla's is now greater than the camaro car market. By quite a bit it seems.

We're going to be the novelty at car shows rather than the guy who shows up with an electric car in the near future.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

1. tesla's profits have nothing to do with direct sales and more to do with their high R&D costs and having to spend a lot of money creating factories and starting the product supply chains that dont exist for them already.



2. heavy equipment is usually rented, not purchased because they're not something you need all the time and they're expensive and because they're heavy equipment, need specialized expert maintenance.



2b. That's not to say that how they're managed is ideal .. Like farming equipment, being saddled with "dealers" is more about controlling the product even after the sale. That's not in the benefit of the purchaser. Nothing about the dealer system is there to benefit the purchaser. Any time you have to legally mandate a middle man should throw a red flag up. A proper job where you fulfill a need people want, shouldn't require laws to keep anyone from putting you out of business by filling the public need better.

For Tesla, I know they have the R&D to worry about but they have been around for 7 years. Maybe it's still too short of a timeframe, but I don't think they can run the same excuse for forever.

As for heavy equipment, it depends on the situation. The local oilsands mines all have owned fleets along with some rentals. They run constantly.

Fair enough about the last point. Not really saying the dealer system is good(other than the fact it makes money for the people employed there), more just playing the devil's advocate here to just try to see things differently.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

It has absolutely nothing to do with their sales model. They make only electric cars. Their customer base is narrowed signficantly. That eliminates about 90% of the American public from their potential sales base.



Capitalism does not hold businesses hostage to one and only one business model. That's what the NADA has done. The're like the union for car dealerships. If your model works for this company, but that company wants to try something different, they should absolutely be allowed to try it.



I guarantee you this: If the big, major car companies in the world today (GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, MB, Hyundai/Kia) were to convert to direct sales, and with that a reduction in the sticker price of all of their cars by at least 15% (which is what dealers make on every sale - don't let them tell you otherwise), you will see sales go through the roof. And a much happier customer base.

I think it more boils down to whether or not car manufacturers want to have a go at it again. If they wish to, they probably could find ways to make it happen with their lawyer and lobbyist teams. Tesla may struggle to do it from the legal end of things, but giants like GM and Toyota might be able to do it.

And I wonder how trading in will work for direct sales. Like, what does GM do to that Mazda I traded in? I know you get more money from private sales, but not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of that.

Originally Posted by ember1205

I disagree. For quite a while, at least. The price reductions would have to be MASSIVE to stimulate enough sales to offset the losses from dealing with inventory on the lots.



You think it sucks now to not be able to get cars optioned the way you want? Wait until we're back to the days of "you can have any color you want as long as it's black." You will either order your car and wait WEEKS (if not months) to get it, or you will buy something from the local used car dealer. The manufacturers do not have the real estate to store cars that are built and waiting to be purchased.

Your points are exactly what the "car manufacturers don't want to deal with sales" entails. Remember that volume itself doesn't necessarily matter, profit does.

And most people don't really want to order a family Sedan or SUV... They are more than fine with currently available inventory.

Sent from toaster or something

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Also, regarding tesla's narrow customer base. It's not as narrow as the camaro's apparently. The electric car market just for tesla's is now greater than the camaro car market. By quite a bit it seems.

We're going to be the novelty at car shows rather than the guy who shows up with an electric car in the near future.

I see far more Camaro's on the road then I see Tesla's. Maybe there market share is higher... I'm not sure... but I don't think EV's are the future. I think they will always fill a niche market just as many vehicles do. I don't think EV's will be main stream ever. Some other form of alternative fuel like Hydrogen I think will be. I have a life style that would easily allow me to buy a EV. I have zero interest in an EV.