[Number 3]

Originally Posted by amerhash28

no i didn't. But if its a s good as you say on the ATS it will be fun ti drive on the camaro too.but what im trying to say is however good it is on the ats/camaro it will be much more impressive on a smaller and lighter car like the cruze.come on, think about it.do you think the engine on the toyota 86/FR-S will produce the same performance numbers on the 2door prado?there is a lot of weight difference between a car like the ats and a car like cruze?

just sayin....

Keep in mind, the current Cruze is only 150 pounds lighter than an ATS. It's a PIG.

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

They make a turbo Cruze today. It isn't the 2.0T, but it is a turbo.

Yes, a lowly little tiny 1.4L Turbo that makes the same measly HP as the NA 1.8. 138 HP. Enough for getting around, but not much excitement. Having owned a Cruze LTZ with that 1.4L Turbo, I can attest to the not much excitement.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Entry level performance model is needed by GM to compete with the ST line from Ford

The competitor would be the 2.0T Buick Verano. What you are hoping for, I assume, is a "hot hatch". Supposedly that comes with the NG Cruze. But GM does have a small compact with a 250 plus HP engine. It's just a Buick, not a Chevrolet, and it's a sedan.

Originally Posted by Doc

I think the same potential market segment exists today that existed when the original pony cars first debuted. Yes people can certainly buy used cars but that doesn't make a dime for GM. They only make money when they make and sell new vehicles. There's nothing wrong with thinking beyond what's currently going on and reaching for new opportunities because if you don't, somebody else will.



No of course the cannibalization wouldn't be 100% from everyone else. But if the majority of sales are in fact being taken from your competitors then you've grown your customer base. And even for those few that you may have cannibalized from other models in your own catalog, at least you're still making the money. Imagine if you're one of those other companies and suddenly GM is vacuuming up a large portion of one of your market segments. Who would be worried about cannibalization at that point? GM or the other guys?

GM has to do something to grow their customer base if they want to survive in the long run. Reinventing the pony car phenomenon wouldn't be a bad way to do it in my opinion.



The Dodge dart isn't doing any better than it is because there's nothing great about it. It looks like just another "let's take minimal risks" version of me-too euro-japanese styling. The Chevy Cruze is GM's version of a Honda/Mazda/Toyota/Euro styled car; not a pony car at all. Yes people can buy older Camaros and that's great, but it doesn't help GM today or in the future.



That was the bottom model of a car that people expected to be a high-performance muscle car which turned out to be a sports GT it was so good. People wanted power and as I recall, GM was shocked at how many more ordered the V8 than what they were expecting at first. It was a bold design like nothing else in the marketplace and it struck the right note with a market segment that wanted it. When I first saw the original concept car it stopped me dead in my tracks. My first thought when I saw it? I WANT THIS!!! If GM wants to strike that gold again they need to learn from what happened so it becomes a proven strategy instead of just a lucky fluke.

What I'm proposing is a renewal of the original pony car formula. Obviously a few of the exciting, dynamic and forward-looking visionaries here on the forum disagree. So what would you guys propose as a way for Chevy to grow their customer base for the performance car segment?

I think, and pretty sure GM would agree, they've just shown us what that is.

This is the same as alllllll the people that claim GM needs a Chevelle in the showroom too. You can't have same/similar vehicles in the same showroom that ruin the business case for cars sitting 10 feet away.

Sorry to break it to you guys, but $26,900 is the entry level price point. It may go down with the 2.0T a grand or so but you'll have a hard time finding a 330 HP V6 sport coupe for that money. A 348 HP Genesis coupe will run you about the same amount.

There is no room in the Chevy showroom for another sport coupe for only a few thousand less.

Keep in mind, a base Malibu runs you $22,465 with a 2.5L NA 200 HP engine, FWD.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The competitor would be the 2.0T Buick Verano. What you are hoping for, I assume, is a "hot hatch". Supposedly that comes with the NG Cruze. But GM does have a small compact with a 250 plus HP engine. It's just a Buick, not a Chevrolet, and it's a sedan.

Yes I think GM needs something in the hot hatch segment. Everyone I have talked to that has an ST or driven one, Focus or Fiesta says that they are incredibly fun cars to drive.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Keep in mind, the current Cruze is only 150 pounds lighter than an ATS. It's a PIG.

Yes, a lowly little tiny 1.4L Turbo that makes the same measly HP as the NA 1.8. 138 HP. Enough for getting around, but not much excitement. Having owned a Cruze LTZ with that 1.4L Turbo, I can attest to the not much excitement.

You've just made a pretty good case against buying a Cruze. Call me crazy but if I were in charge I would want to address that issue.

The competitor would be the 2.0T Buick Verano. What you are hoping for, I assume, is a "hot hatch". Supposedly that comes with the NG Cruze. But GM does have a small compact with a 250 plus HP engine. It's just a Buick, not a Chevrolet, and it's a sedan.

Again, you're illustrating why a new version of a pony car which would be that sedan/engine combo with a pony car body, could possibly be a success. Do a concept car or some drawings/renders to see what the public reaction is.

I think, and pretty sure GM would agree, they've just shown us what that is.

This is the same as alllllll the people that claim GM needs a Chevelle in the showroom too. You can't have same/similar vehicles in the same showroom that ruin the business case for cars sitting 10 feet away.

Sorry to break it to you guys, but $26,900 is the entry level price point. It may go down with the 2.0T a grand or so but you'll have a hard time finding a 330 HP V6 sport coupe for that money. A 348 HP Genesis coupe will run you about the same amount.

There is no room in the Chevy showroom for another sport coupe for only a few thousand less.

Keep in mind, a base Malibu runs you $22,465 with a 2.5L NA 200 HP engine, FWD.

If this is the thinking going on inside GM management, that's worrisome. If "a few thousand less" is actually $8,000 less then I respectfully disagree about there not being room in the showroom. A revised pony car starting at $18,950 would not be a bad thing at all. If you're a new buyer/family looking for something sporty with 4 seats and as much as you'd like a Camaro that's going to be $30k with tax and license, and you just can't afford it, wouldn't it be great if 10 feet away is a sporty-looking pony car from the same people who make that Camaro, and it's $20k with tax and license? I don't see how that would hurt the Camaro or GM; to me it would be just the opposite.

I'm honestly finding it astonishing how much the Camaro forums have changed the last 6 years. It used to be so positive and full of energy, excitement and enthusiasm. People use to be eager to talk about the future and "what if". Now it seems rather... grim and negative for the most part. It seems like there's much more "no", "you can't do that", "that can't be done" etc. Why are so many on defense? If continually raising the price of the entry-level Camaro until it's out of range of new customers (even though the value for the money is there) is their strategy for future growth and survival...they're in trouble. Those who can afford it will still buy, but how many are they going to buy in the next 5-10 years? What if Ford decides to reinvent the pony car magic that their original Mustang created in 1964? They thought of it first before; they can think of it first again. In my opinion it's worth taking a serious look at.

Again...I'm not saying spend a billion dollars, go into production and then hope they sell. All I'm saying is think beyond the moment and the next quarterly report, and come up with a concept car to see IF this is a viable strategy. And make it a hot looking concept like the original 5th gen Camaro; not another me too version of what everybody else is doing.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Doc

If this is the thinking going on inside GM management, that's worrisome. If "a few thousand less" is actually $8,000 less then I respectfully disagree about there not being room in the showroom. A revised pony car starting at $18,950 would not be a bad thing at all. If you're a new buyer/family looking for something sporty with 4 seats and as much as you'd like a Camaro that's going to be $30k with tax and license, and you just can't afford it, wouldn't it be great if 10 feet away is a sporty-looking pony car from the same people who make that Camaro, and it's $20k with tax and license? I don't see how that would hurt the Camaro or GM; to me it would be just the opposite.

I'm honestly finding it astonishing how much the Camaro forums have changed the last 6 years. It used to be so positive and full of energy, excitement and enthusiasm. People use to be eager to talk about the future and "what if". Now it seems rather... grim and negative for the most part. It seems like there's much more "no", "you can't do that", "that can't be done" etc. Why are so many on defense? If continually raising the price of the entry-level Camaro until it's out of range of new customers (even though the value for the money is there) is their strategy for future growth and survival...they're in trouble. Those who can afford it will still buy, but how many are they going to buy in the next 5-10 years? What if Ford decides to reinvent the pony car magic that their original Mustang created in 1964? They thought of it first before; they can think of it first again. In my opinion it's worth taking a serious look at.

Again...I'm not saying spend a billion dollars, go into production and then hope they sell. All I'm saying is think beyond the moment and the next quarterly report, and come up with a concept car to see IF this is a viable strategy. And make it a hot looking concept like the original 5th gen Camaro; not another me too version of what everybody else is doing.

Under $20k, here is what is out there. Nothing I would sporty like the Mustang was when introduced.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobile...tml/?a=viewall

You have to move up to $24k starting price to get into the next fastest bracket, for example the VW GTI. But you can easily load it to $29k by adding things things the 2LT has standard. I think that "couple of thousand" difference is what Number 3 was talking about. The math just won't work to design a completely new car/chassis for that kind of price. Much easier to justify taking a Cruze and dropping a 250hp 2.0T in it.

And just to put some numbers behind small 2 dr RWD sport coupes:








And apparently some people think that is sales success too. Guess I've been looking at Mustang/Camaro/Challenger/Charger sales too much.

[Doc]

Well...obviously there just isn't much interest in thinking/discussing anything beyond the moment. And I'm really not sure why, even though I've repeatedly said PONY CAR I keep seeing "I'm going to shoot you down" posts that talk about 2-seater sports cars or just about everything else except a pony car. A PONY CAR is NOT a sports car; it has 4 seats not 2. It's bigger than a small hatchback or econo-bug. American pony cars did NOT look like something from overseas; they were clearly and distinctly American designs; they did not follow a trend, they SET A TREND. The 5th gen Camaro styling was directly inspired by the pony car Camaros of the late 1960's. It was a runaway smash hit sales success.

Maybe the reason why people are having a hard time trying to find something else like what I'm advocating (so they can use that to point out how wrong I am to even consider it!) is because there ISN'T anything else out there right now like what I'm advocating. The closest perhaps would be the Mazda 3 which just happens to be rated the top in its segment. And it's priced from about $17k-$24k; exactly the price points I'm advocating for a reborn pony car. But either nobody here gets it, wants to get it, or even cares...none of which makes for any kind of enjoyable conversation.

Oh well...thank you to those who took the time to post what you did, and thanks to the rest who bothered to read this thread!

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Doc

Well...obviously there just isn't much interest in thinking/discussing anything beyond the moment. And I'm really not sure why, even though I've repeatedly said PONY CAR I keep seeing "I'm going to shoot you down" posts that talk about 2-seater sports cars or just about everything else except a pony car. A PONY CAR is NOT a sports car; it has 4 seats not 2. It's bigger than a small hatchback or econo-bug. American pony cars did NOT look like something from overseas; they were clearly and distinctly American designs; they did not follow a trend, they SET A TREND. The 5th gen Camaro styling was directly inspired by the pony car Camaros of the late 1960's. It was a runaway smash hit sales success.

Maybe the reason why people are having a hard time trying to find something else like what I'm advocating (so they can use that to point out how wrong I am to even consider it!) is because there ISN'T anything else out there right now like what I'm advocating. The closest perhaps would be the Mazda 3 which just happens to be rated the top in its segment. And it's priced from about $17k-$24k; exactly the price points I'm advocating for a reborn pony car. But either nobody here gets it, wants to get it, or even cares...none of which makes for any kind of enjoyable conversation.

Oh well...thank you to those who took the time to post what you did, and thanks to the rest who bothered to read this thread!

And the Mazda 3 is a compact sedan, like the Golf, Focus, Civic, Corolla, Cruze, etc.... no cars in that segment are RWD. None have real performance under $24k. Also the FR-S and BRZ are 2+2 just like the original pony cars. Maybe they are not selling because they are Japanese boring. Maybe an American competitor would do better, but it would need to share a platform to make it even remotely cost effective from my understanding of the industry. That's why Toyota and Subaru joined forces to begin with. Maybe if Ford and GM teamed up like to develop a platform, they would have better success. I think the bottom line is car companies don't take risks like they did 50 years ago.

btw I enjoyed the conversation and thought it was worth discussing

[90503]

Originally Posted by Doc

Well...obviously there just isn't much interest in thinking/discussing anything beyond the moment. And I'm really not sure why, even though I've repeatedly said PONY CAR I keep seeing "I'm going to shoot you down" posts that talk about 2-seater sports cars or just about everything else except a pony car. A PONY CAR is NOT a sports car; it has 4 seats not 2. It's bigger than a small hatchback or econo-bug. American pony cars did NOT look like something from overseas; they were clearly and distinctly American designs; they did not follow a trend, they SET A TREND. The 5th gen Camaro styling was directly inspired by the pony car Camaros of the late 1960's. It was a runaway smash hit sales success.

Maybe the reason why people are having a hard time trying to find something else like what I'm advocating (so they can use that to point out how wrong I am to even consider it!) is because there ISN'T anything else out there right now like what I'm advocating. The closest perhaps would be the Mazda 3 which just happens to be rated the top in its segment. And it's priced from about $17k-$24k; exactly the price points I'm advocating for a reborn pony car. But either nobody here gets it, wants to get it, or even cares...none of which makes for any kind of enjoyable conversation.

Oh well...thank you to those who took the time to post what you did, and thanks to the rest who bothered to read this thread!

Unfortunately the Pony Car craze and what we saw with the 5thGen IMO will never be repeated, or even expanded upon. Only by the fickle finger of fate did we get the 5thGen...and not too long after it appeared, the cry from GM was "OMG, we gotta change these so we can sell them in Europe"...

The manufacturers didn't show much interest in American Muscle Pony Cars...their design, appeal, etc....Making them to satisfy the appetites of those of us who remember the 60s and 70s was almost a nuisance and something that couldn't be over with too soon....The 6thGen has been described as non-retro...that is over...the Camaro has moved on to it's own entity....(and that does not include an inexpensive entry-level model)....

So, I here you Doc, but I think we got our 5thGen day-in-the-sun and that will be it. The industry has made it's few dollars from us, but that is now over.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And the Mazda 3 is a compact sedan, like the Golf, Focus, Civic, Corolla, Cruze, etc.... no cars in that segment are RWD. None have real performance under $24k. Also the FR-S and BRZ are 2+2 just like the original pony cars. Maybe they are not selling because they are Japanese boring. Maybe an American competitor would do better, but it would need to share a platform to make it even remotely cost effective from my understanding of the industry. That's why Toyota and Subaru joined forces to begin with. Maybe if Ford and GM teamed up like to develop a platform, they would have better success. I think the bottom line is car companies don't take risks like they did 50 years ago.

btw I enjoyed the conversation and thought it was worth discussing

Like super sound said, basically what Doc is proposing is american versions of the FRs and BRZ. Both of which aren't selling. I just don't see a place for a car like that in GM lineup.

a hot hatch car tho, that they should get on

[Steelcoupe]

If GM would ask me what I'd like in an intro, sporty, two-door coupe I'd say something with a 20 to 25 intro price, RWD (non-negotiable), excellent chassis, a body that is not too long or too short, or too low or too tall, and definitely something that is wide enough to carry 3 adults in the backseat for short trips. Exterior design wise nothing boring, or nothing trendy, basically a design that is both handsome and classic. Power wise I want to see a 4 as standard and a 6 for performance (and a TTV6 for a high-performance model). And while I wouldn't expect a V8 to be offered I would expect the engine bay be able to accept a V8 for the hot rodders that aren't going anywhere.

[High Magnitude]

They should just make a Cruze or Malibu coupe with a slightly detuned version of the I4T in the ATS 2.0 and base Camaro.

[KaBoom1701]

Originally Posted by High Magnitude

They should just make a Cruze or Malibu coupe with a slightly detuned version of the I4T in the ATS 2.0 and base Camaro.

[Goblue1313]

Originally Posted by High Magnitude

They should just make a Cruze or Malibu coupe with a slightly detuned version of the I4T in the ATS 2.0 and base Camaro.

Would be great to see a Cruze coupe. But if they put the 2.0T in it it can't be detuned or it would get slaughtered by the Focus ST. The reality is that there won't be another small couple under the Camaro and if by some miracle that happened it definitely won't be rwd. Small sized two door coupes have fallen out of favor. Even in the hot hatch realm only VW still offers a two door. The best that can realistically be hoped for would be a Cruze SS sedan or maybe 5 door. Although the pics I've seen of the possible 5 door is not really a looker. But a Cruze SS with the 2.0T at its current 270hp could be a nice, sporty little hot rod that could be tuned into the 300+hp range and and still be really well optioned out in the low to mid 20k range. For some reason GM has completely surrendered that market to Ford and the imports. That Cruze with that engine could be the gateway drug to the Camaro you're looking for.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Like super sound said, basically what Doc is proposing is american versions of the FRs and BRZ. Both of which aren't selling. I just don't see a place for a car like that in GM lineup.

a hot hatch car tho, that they should get on

Could it be that the FR's & BRZ's aren't selling because there is Zero Marketing from either Toyota or Suburu?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

Could it be that the FR's & BRZ's aren't selling because there is Zero Marketing from either Toyota or Suburu?

That very well could be it as well. I just don't know if there is a market place for them