Monster Camaro Z/28 Reveals Itself on the Nurburgring! (Updated With First Video) - Page 36

Bhobbs · 05-13-2016, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Not sure I am following your thinking.

If whatever this car being tested is powered by the LT4, that leaves no direct competitor for the GT350. Sure, the LT4 powered cars will likely be faster, as they should be. Yes, the 1LE may come close but 455 vs 526 hp is a big disparity to overcome. Depending on the power output of the next GT500, the LT4 cars may not even directly compete with it either.

bballr4567 · 05-13-2016, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If whatever this car being tested is powered by the LT4, that leaves no direct competitor for the GT350. Sure, the LT4 powered cars will likely be faster, as they should be. Yes, the 1LE may come close but 455 vs 526 hp is a big disparity to overcome. Depending on the power output of the next GT500, the LT4 cars may not even directly compete with it either.

I agree completely. GT350 is the target for the Z/28.

However, GM can easily do a LS6 with the LT1. It wouldn't be a whole new engine and could easily bump the power to 515-520 while destroying the GT350 in TQ.

Sven59 · 05-13-2016, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

I agree completely. GT350 is the target for the Z/28.

However, GM can easily do a LS6 with the LT1. It wouldn't be a whole new engine and could easily bump the power to 515-520 while destroying the GT350 in TQ.

The ZL1 will probably take care of the GT350. Z/28 targeting the Viper?

newb · 05-13-2016, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven59

The ZL1 will probably take care of the GT350. Z/28 targeting the Viper?

While being faster, it will not be able to sustain it. I bet it heat soaks and pulls timing after just a few laps. May not go full limp mode, but it won't run full power all day like a well engineered NA car.

Sven59 · 05-13-2016, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newb

While being faster, it will not be able to sustain it. I bet it heat soaks and pulls timing after just a few laps. May not go full limp mode, but it won't run full power all day like a well engineered NA car.

You need to read up on the cooling enhancements going into the ZL1. I doubt heat soak will be an issue.

Thor142 · 05-13-2016, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

I agree completely. GT350 is the target for the Z/28.

However, GM can easily do a LS6 with the LT1. It wouldn't be a whole new engine and could easily bump the power to 515-520 while destroying the GT350 in TQ.

Not trying to argue here, just discussing. I really don't think developing a HIPO NA motor that meets current and future CAFE/ emissions is easy. They have to spread out the R&D of the new powerplant over the course of its expected life and make a profit with it. If they develop this hypothetical motor and it's only got a life span of a couple years due to future emissions and it only goes into a couple track type cars the costs would be astronomical. I'd like to see some magic secret NA motor as much as anyone so I hope y'all are right

JusticePete · 05-13-2016, 11:55 AM

There used to be a fixed hierarchy in GM protecting the Corvette as King. That is no longer the case. TEAM Camaro has no restrictions placed on them to protect the Corvette. If TEAM Camaro can develop a faster Camaro, they are free to do so. That was clear when the 5th Gen Z/28 ran stunning times at the Ring. What holds TEAM Camaro back are sticker price and a back seat. Kudos to TEAM Camaro for pushing the limits on all levels to produce stunning performance numbers that rival the Corvette.

bballr4567 · 05-13-2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor142

Not trying to argue here, just discussing. I really don't think developing a HIPO NA motor that meets current and future CAFE/ emissions is easy. They have to spread out the R&D of the new powerplant over the course of its expected life and make a profit with it. If they develop this hypothetical motor and it's only got a life span of a couple years due to future emissions and it only goes into a couple track type cars the costs would be astronomical. I'd like to see some magic secret NA motor as much as anyone so I hope y'all are right

We have MAYBE 2,000 cars a year going to be made here. That is nothing with GM.

Emissions is not that big of a problem when you are shooting for 500-525 HP. Now, when you have goals of 575-600 N/A HP like the Corvette team with the new Z06 and then it becomes a problem.

JusticePete · 05-13-2016, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

It's only a bad thing when the Corvette goes in a direction that doesn't allow you to effectively compete in areas your segment.

Yes, the V6 and SS outperform the Mustang but an LT4 Z/28 leaves the GT350 unchallenged. Plus, Ford being Ford, the GT500 is likely to make more power than the Hellcat. So, now there is a situation where two nearly identical Camaro hi po version likely won't counter the Mustang variants.

Is it better to compete model to model with Mustang or is it better to build the best possible Camaro models and let Ford chase Chevrolet?

SpeedIsLife · 05-13-2016, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

I agree completely. GT350 is the target for the Z/28.

However, GM can easily do a LS6 with the LT1. It wouldn't be a whole new engine and could easily bump the power to 515-520 while destroying the GT350 in TQ.

No, they can't do it easily.

You're expecting over a 10% increase in power, closer to 13%, in a situation where GM is facing increasing fuel economy, emissions and other requirements. It IS easily doable if you didn't have to worry about emissions, fuel economy, very long term durability, etc..

A revised intake manifold, that meets OE requirements, is CAFE friendly, can pass CARB, etc..might add another 15 at the most. Stuff like the Holley and MSD intakes? Wouldn't pass muster at GM for mainline production.

SO..a revised LTX might hit 485HP, but nowhere near 500+.

SpeedIsLife · 05-13-2016, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballr4567

We have MAYBE 2,000 cars a year going to be made here. That is nothing with GM.

Emissions is not that big of a problem when you are shooting for 500-525 HP. Now, when you have goals of 575-600 N/A HP like the Corvette team with the new Z06 and then it becomes a problem.

Emissions ARE a big deal on EVERY motor. It's not just one parameter of emissions they have to comply with..there are multiple realms that they have to test for, comply with, meet, etc. Emissions on a 6.2L 500+ HP car might be less of an issue now..but what about each successive year where they get stricter and stricter? GM can't build a motor for right now, they have to think years and years out.

Bhobbs · 05-13-2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticePete

There used to be a fixed hierarchy in GM protecting the Corvette as King. That is no longer the case. TEAM Camaro has no restrictions placed on them to protect the Corvette. If TEAM Camaro can develop a faster Camaro, they are free to do so. That was clear when the 5th Gen Z/28 ran stunning times at the Ring. What holds TEAM Camaro back are sticker price and a back seat. Kudos to TEAM Camaro for pushing the limits on all levels to produce stunning performance numbers that rival the Corvette.

The hierarchy is still in place. Corvette dictates the engines developed and Camaro has to use those. The rest is irrelevant because Camaro will always weigh more and be slower. The Z/28 was still 15 seconds behind the Z06 around the Nurburgring. Even if the 7:32 lap time was true, that's 10 seconds between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Is it better to compete model to model with Mustang or is it better to build the best possible Camaro models and let Ford Chase Chevrolet?

Does building a Z/28 meant to compete with the GT350R mean it can't be better in every way and the best Camaro possible?

Thor142 · 05-13-2016, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Emissions ARE a big deal on EVERY motor. It's not just one parameter of emissions they have to comply with..there are multiple realms that they have to test for, comply with, meet, etc. Emissions on a 6.2L 500+ HP car might be less of an issue now..but what about each successive year where they get stricter and stricter? GM can't build a motor for right now, they have to think years and years out.

^^^^This

There's just NO WAY GM is doing all the required R&D and tooling up a plant to build a limited edition HIPO NA motor. If anything I bet we see more SC and turbos and smaller engines sooner than later. You want a big honkin NA V8 you better get it now.

Bhobbs · 05-13-2016, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor142

^^^^This

There's just NO WAY GM is doing all the required R&D and tooling up a plant to build a limited edition HIPO NA motor. If anything I bet we see more SC and turbos and smaller engines sooner than later. You want a big honkin NA V8 you better get it now.

Ford built the 5.2 Voodoo. The difference is they want to build that engine. Oh, and it's being put in a car that's substantially cheaper than the Z28 will be.

If this is a Z28, and it comes with the LT4, the reason is because that's all they had to use.

05-13-2016, 11:55 AM	#497
JusticePete Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 20,174	There used to be a fixed hierarchy in GM protecting the Corvette as King. That is no longer the case. TEAM Camaro has no restrictions placed on them to protect the Corvette. If TEAM Camaro can develop a faster Camaro, they are free to do so. That was clear when the 5th Gen Z/28 ran stunning times at the Ring. What holds TEAM Camaro back are sticker price and a back seat. Kudos to TEAM Camaro for pushing the limits on all levels to produce stunning performance numbers that rival the Corvette.

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