[GearheadSS]

Also, base price of a 2015 1SS was $34,500. 2016 1SS was $37,295. So, $2,795 more than the outgoing 5th gen. It's absurd to compare the price of a new generation vehicle to one that was produced 4-5 years prior because EVERYTHING goes up in price.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

You can buy 700-850 HP Mustangs with warranties from this dealer in Ohio, starting at $40k. I probably would have bought one of these instead of my Z/28, had the S550 Mustang not been so damn ugly. https://www.lebanonfordperformance.c...r-for-39995-2/

The Roush supercharger is the only one that will carry the Ford warranty. The others will quickly result in a warranty block from Ford. Some of them offer a warranty from the Supercharger manufacturer but I wouldn't take my chances with that. The Roush is the only one I would remotely consider simply due to warranty issues.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by dpevans

that's because the SUV and Truck market make up the profit for GM so they can build cars like the Corvette and Camaro.

I accept that, but i know there are those out there like our family who buy GM SUV's because of cars like the Corvette and Camaro. With halo effect of enthusiasts cars gone, they would sell less SUV's.

[BluePhoenix]

With the Camaro LT1 trim, I don’t think is going to change much. It’s base price is $35,000 not the $32,000-$33,000 it should be. It’s great for someone who want’s a Camaro with the LT1 V8 and price tag doesn’t bother them considering it’s very base model. Guys post about the discounts they got, well that’s great BUT the general public isn’t getting your special discounts, they are getting standard monthly GM rebates and offers on 2019’s. Unless you have a very motivated dealer to sell.

[cellsafemode]

Seems pretty obvious that there's a disconnect between the public that wants to buy a camaro and the price the camaro is sold at.

The real argument though, is if that's a problem with the price of the camaro, or with the income of the people who would buy it.

I'm leaning more towards the latter.

The only way to bring the price down on the camaro is if we lived in an alternate reality where GM unions didn't exist, GM as a company wasn't greedy for decades leading to tons of legal overhead and they really loved making cars for people and didn't feel the need to make a huge profit margin per unit. The alternative is to build it with crappier parts so it's cheaper and that would just end up pushing that purchasing public to other cars.

Instead, i'm pretty sure the problem is the erosion of the middle class, the increase cost of living for the remaining and an unstable job market where you're not able to depend on working at a single place for decades until retirement anymore. Those are things car companies can't fix. And it's why they will continue to suffer as the market begins contracting in the near future.

[Lafourche1]

Simply put the times are (have) a changin'. Trucks, SUVs and cross-overs are where the money is made for every manufacturer, even Porsche. Lamborghini and Ferrari have SUVs out or due to come out shortly. I got convulsions just typing that last sentence. Remember the furor over the BMW SUV, years back. Sacrilege. Now it supports the company.

The younger demographic is not attracted to performance cars. Yes, there is a certain group that lean towards performance imports, but rarely do we embrace them into our car culture. The rest are forced to buy functional, cheap vehicles because of student debt, low wages and fear of uncertain futures. Many (my daughter is part of this group) do not want children. She is not alone.

I've written this before. I am fairly active in the local car culture. I go to cruise-ins. I track my car. I even make the odd trip to the drag strip. I have a Medicare card in my wallet. I am not old in my car group

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Smokin19

Please expound on these mods to make it eat a ZL1. Then after your mods it's still only worth what a basic 2SS sells for. Of course the drive train will grenade after all those mods, because it was not built to handle that kind of power. Let us know how it works out for you in a few years.

Seriously?

https://www.easycalculation.com/phys...apsed-time.php

You play with the numbers and get back to me....

Until then, remember these little factoids:

MOST cars are not investments. They are money pits. You NEVER see the money put in a car. Especially a moded car. Your ZL1 has already lost 6-10K for example. That would bring it down to... ummm… ohh... the price of a loaded 2SS, huh?

Weakest link in the drivetrain? Same as it has been in Camaro's for years.. the rear end. Not to hard to fix. The mod parts are out there. Throw 3-4K on the mod money list if you need to. It's STILL cheaper than a ZL1 and now I have a bullet proof rear end.
Second problem, cast pistons. 650whp seems to be the limit there. But, that's all you need because....

The 1LT body is lighter than the ZL1 (and the Hellcat). Every 100 lbs is a .10th. I'm guessing you could get a 33xx 1LT weigh in. Add the SC, strip some stuff and be in @ 3500 tops (preferably 3.4K). Compare that to your tub of lardmobile crushing the scales @ a 3883+ curb weight.

TRIVIA TIME!

Did you know that a 90's, full size, 4 door Caprice weighs about the same as your ZL1?

Go ahead, now, play with that calculator and see the et's.
Oh, ya! As a bonus, less mass to put in motion is easier on the drivetrain.
And it's all in a plain jane, I4 looking Camaro.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Seriously?

https://www.easycalculation.com/phys...apsed-time.php

You play with the numbers and get back to me....

Until then, remember these little factoids:

MOST cars are not investments. They are money pits. You NEVER see the money put in a car. Especially a moded car. Your ZL1 has already lost 6-10K for example. That would bring it down to... ummm… ohh... the price of a loaded 2SS, huh?

Weakest link in the drivetrain? Same as it has been in Camaro's for years.. the rear end. Not to hard to fix. The mod parts are out there. Throw 3-4K on the mod money list if you need to. It's STILL cheaper than a ZL1 and now I have a bullet proof rear end.
Second problem, cast pistons. 650whp seems to be the limit there. But, that's all you need because....

The 1LT body is lighter than the ZL1 (and the Hellcat). Every 100 lbs is a .10th. I'm guessing you could get a 33xx 1LT weigh in. Add the SC, strip some stuff and be in @ 3500 tops (preferably 3.4K). Compare that to your tub of lardmobile crushing the scales @ a 3883+ curb weight.

TRIVIA TIME!

Did you know that a 90's, full size, 4 door Caprice weighs about the same as your ZL1?

Go ahead, now, play with that calculator and see the et's.
Oh, ya! As a bonus, less mass to put in motion is easier on the drivetrain.
And it's all in a plain jane, I4 looking Camaro.

I just want to say that the way you post to make your points makes you seem like a real douchebag.

[6spdhyperblue]

First I heard the rear of the 6th gen being weak

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

First I heard the rear of the 6th gen being weak

weakest, not weak. My understanding was excess torque/hooking could break a ring tooth off.

[JT58]

Camaro SS cannot compete with Mustang GT's price wise. I paid only 33K for my 18 GT base brand new. But it was a piece of crap. The engine was fine new but after only 3K is started the ticking noise. Then at 5K it turned to an internal rattling at 2500 RPM, knocking at idle, then pinging. Dealer did nothing. I traded it for a base 18 demo used VW GTI. Then I bought my current 2016 Camaro. No matter how cheap I would not buy another Mustang.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by JCunningham

the RS is over $50k

The Blazer RS starts in the low 40s. Just another great example of how people love to load up a vehicle and then talk like that's the normal price.

Not to mention you know these things are going to have money on the hood not too long from now. You'll be able to find RS models (again, that don't include every option checked) for mid to upper 30s for sure.

Originally Posted by samurai

It's so easy to just point out the entry price of cars and argue that being cheaper is always the best. But you totally forgot to see why the Camaro was more expensive than the 15 Mustang GT. And this is coming from someone who owned a 15 GT and still think the car is great.

As a note, my opinion is based on the european GT model, which is pretty much the maxed out equipment of a GT incl. Perofrmance Package 1.

Some examples:
- Ride quality. The ride quality in the 15 GT (even with PP1) is only useful if you want to cruise. As soon as you want to drive it like a sportscar it's bad. Wheel hopping, a lot of bodyroll. And if you want to drive above 180 kph the whole car starts to shake. The MR in the Camaro in comparison is extremely good, the only reason to upgrade to an aftermarket one is when you are track focussed. You can even drive the vmax of 290 kph (Germany ) in the Camaro without feeling unsafe.

- Build quality. In the Camaro its to this day miles ahead of the GT. A lot of 15+16 models had totally crooked rearwindows, a lot of parts are not aligned very well and even the refresh comes with some crazy gapsunder the headlights (I could fit my finger in the gap of one I saw) on some cars. Fords quality control is just horrible.

- Material quallity. Just touch the steering wheel on a 15 GT. It feels like really bad plastic, because the leather is so thin and painted with some cheap paint. The Camaro in comparison has a high quality leather steering wheel like you get from BMW etc. Same goes for the seats, Fords seats tend to have waves and start to crack within the first 10k miles.
- Increased visiual quality: Just look how many parts Chevy is painting the Camaro where Mustang just goes with unpainted plastic: front grilles, diffusor, most parts of the engine bay.

- Wheels. The Pirelli Pzero on the 15 Mustang GTs were the worst wheels I have even driven. As soon as the road is just a little wet, you have to drive like a granny to not fly out of a corner, even at low speed.

- Exhaust. The 15 GT sounds just bad. It's just way too quiet, that is in no way the V8 experience people want. The Camaro sounds way better especially with the NPP.

- Infotainment. SYNC2 was horrible in the Mustang. The navigation was not able to show you informations/arrows in the instrument cluster, only on the center console screen. In the Camaro you can even display that stuff in the HUD. Even with SYNC3 a lot of stuff is just badly designed in the Mustang. Rev Match is bound to being in sportmode, Camaro uses the paddles, with the current mustang you can't even set up exhaust note, ride mode, etc like you can in the Camaro. As soon as the leave the car, everything is set back to normal. Camaro can be leaved in track exhaust and ride mode without problems.


- I would even say the LT1 engine is the better engine in every single way compared to the Coyote in the 15 GT. The Coyote is missing torque and really needs to get above 4k RPM to get going. The LT1 has way more low-rpm power and even get's better milage when cruising.



To be fair, Ford stepped up their game with the refresh. They added Magnetic Ride, active valve exhaust, competition for the 1LE with the Performance Package 2, threw away the Pzero wheels, increased steering wheel and leather quality, updated the coyote for more low-rpm power and most of the other stuff. But for this reason they had to increase their base prices by a huge amount so now it's pretty much on par with 6th Gen Camaro.

Listen, I really liked my 15GT, but if you have driven both cars with more than a day, you can feel at every single thing of this car why the 6th Camaro launched way more expensive than the Mustang GT at this time. Chevy knew what they did, they wanted to build a high quality sportscar and not just the cheap V8 cruiser. That's why the price went up. They of course calculated that this will decrease sales, but my guess is that the higher price is also giving them more profit per car than a lower priced model.

Amen. The Camaro SS entry price felt a bit steep, but what you get in the SS was worth it when you compared MSRP vs MSRP between the 2015 SS and the 2016 SS. Where Chevy could have done better though, was if they had the foresight to offer a "LT1" like model right from the get go, and had the standard SS be the 2SS or something like that.

Originally Posted by L8Apex

I bought a new Chevy Blazer in 95 and it was the worst vehicle I've ever owned, I had to laugh when I saw they brought it back, I won't touch it with a 50' pole.

Yeah, b/c products made in 1995 are just like the ones made in 2019.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

I just want to say that the way you post to make your points makes you seem like a real douchebag.

If you don't agree with what I post I am more than happy to discuss it. Maybe I am right and you're wrong. Maybe I am wrong and you're right. Maybe we are both right AND wrong. I don't have all the answers.

One thing that doesn't sit well with anyone is being talked down to and treated like you're an idiot. That's how the last response post read to me. So, yes, I did turn the douche level up.

So, are you speaking in general? Or this specific thread?

[ron8879]

very interesting points.
-Sadly the price of vehicles are escalating at a rate that income is not.
-As well sadly, the v8 market is becoming a premium product.....its excessive to most needs. My 6 can go 155mph (no I havent done it myself) and most roads have no need for triple digit speeds...
- another point, for years and years V6 and now 4 turbo owners were told that they dont have a "real" Camaro because it doesn't have a V8....those owners are your bread and butter buyers of what sells the most ....so they are shunned and then expected to stick with a brand?!?
- The times are changing and the Camaro is not a corvette, if it is to survive the V8 will account for less sales with more product focus on 4 and 6 for volume sale...