[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Doc

This little Opel has a lot of potential, depending on the price point. If they decide to compete with the Miata and start it at $25k well...not good.

As to some of the others talking about the Miata, I think the decline in sales numbers are directly related to the price increases. The base model with DFC starts at $26k. Start getting any kind of upgrades and you're quickly pushing $30k, so suddenly you have a car payment pushing $600 a month. It also has the burden of being a 2-seater sports car, which is the worst category for insurance, so that too adds to the payment.

If they bring that little Opel in starting at $20,990 I think they'd have a sales winner.

I concur.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Lukemo

YES. Cruze SS hatch, 2.0T, beefy suspension, nice tires, AWD option. It would be perfect competition for the Focus ST.

Same with the Sonic. Pump up the 1.4T and redesign the suspension, call it a Sonic SS... you've got a Fiesta ST fighter.

Why wouldn't GM do this...?

Because it has to make business sense. Usually, these performance trims represent a small portion of sales since the overall enthusiast percentage is relatively small. Therefore, they don't really make a lot of money but the goal is to create more buzz and excitement and brand awareness.

For example, I would not even look in the direction of a Ford Focus or Fiesta, I mean cmon, however all of a sudden you have a a more aggressive looking Focus ST and now a Focus RS and I take a peek.

Civic is lame until an SI or Type R appears and then we take notice. The new SI should sell pretty well once it is released. Lots of fun and reliability there for under 30k.

Subaru is boring until you see a WRX/STI.

Toyota used to be cool with Supra, Celica GTS, MR2 Supercharged, etc. Now they only have the GT86, cool car but not the Toyota they used to be.

Nissan has a dated overpriced 370z and an awesome but way too expensive for most GTR. The new Maxima look like it grew a foot in length and lets not forget it is wrong wheel drive, I mean FWD.

Mazda has the new Miata, which is probably the most fun car per dollar but it is really small and works best as a 2nd or 3rd car.

VW has the Golf GTI and Golf R but VW quality scare the heck out of me.

The you have the high-line German cars, BMW and Audi have some very nice cars but you are gonna pay a lot new and then nobody wants to own them once the warranty runs out since it seems like they were built to last 48 months or 50,000 miles.

Mercedes, some nice cars but too expensive for me.

Lexus tops the charts with reliability and overall quality but their cars seem to lack character and are too numb for an enthusiast. The IS350 Coupe is gonna cost more than a loaded Camaro and it doesn't match the performance and is just missing some excitement for me. The IS350 sedan is decent for what it is and the car I would have probably bought if I just needed a 4 door sports sedan.

Infiniti has the new Q50 Sport RED 400hp model out now but it will cost over 50k but it is nice to see them up the game, maybe Lexus will add some more power to the IS350 line. It has been stuck at 306hp for like over a decade.

The Ford Mustang is decent but when compared to the LT1, 8 speed auto/6 speed Tremec with rev match, plus the optional MRC and NPP, the Camaro offers a better value.

The Challenger Scat Pack is cool and fast in a stright line, but is running on a dated chassis and weight as much as my minivan. That said, probably my 2nd muscle care choice if the Camaro did not exist. Although I would probably be scared off by Dodge reliability rankings. I mean that Dodge/Chrysler group always seems to rank last in reliability.

So that pretty much my stream of consciousness and how I would up with another Camaro. If you do your homework, is it clearly the one of the best cars available and rightly deserves the MotorTrend Car of the Year award.

[Baywire]

Originally Posted by Posaune

If I'm understanding this correctly, you suggest using the AWD system from the ATS in the Cruze, Correct?

If so, it is not as simple as adapting the ATS AWD system to the Cruze. ATS (alpha platform) is longitudinal front-engine, RWD based, Cruze (D2XX Platform) is transverse front-engine, FWD based. The D2XX based Buick Envision has AWD available which would be easier to adapt to the Cruze but it would still require extensive reengineering since (IIRC) the exhaust routes where the transmission and drive shaft would go.

I was only using it as an example of GM having the capabilities to transfer from one platform to another. Even if it came to adapting with a new generation. Clearly there are even better options.

My point was that GM will spout some BS about it being too expensive to research and develop "new platforms" when they already have viable platforms to use.

Even if they went the Audi and Mercedes route making FWD biased AWD vehicles. As depending on the model Quattro is FWD biased (usually is base models like A3 and A4) and 4Matic is FWD biased in CLA/A series but are still AWD being able to send power to the back wheels. (This would actually take R&D since GM doesn't currently produce an AWD system like this) But in the end it would be for the better to do one or the other.

When it comes down to it companies who have been adapting FWD to AWD ,like Ford and VW with the Focus RS and Golf R, they will be miles ahead of GM when they finally come to the realization that they have to start using FI and AWD (At least having the ability to option into it if not standard)

The term "Extensive Engineering" is made up by companies/engineers who are too scared/lazy to change their ways set in stone. Usually for the financial reason "if it ain't broke..."

Watch any "chop shop" "resto" car show. Often shoving new tech that doesn't fit into old cars often removing floor panels and adjusting frames to fit different chassis, engines or transmissions. No I'm not claiming they do it in the same time they show it on TV, however they do it in a relatively short and safe manner. I'm willing to bet if you gave a team (5-10) of mechanics and technicians a Cruze and an AWD GM sedan that the Cruze will physically be able to fit on, they could do it in 2 weeks and have a running AWD Cruze.

[Lafourche1]

Maybe I'm not that well informed on entry level performance cars, but I can't think of a single rear wheel drive performance car that is really entry level priced. The WRX (AWD) is close to $26K in base form. The Mazda Miata is $30K and up. The 370Z is $38K base. The BRZ is $25K or more.

For my two cents (only worth a single penny in today's economy), the Camaro is the best dollar for dollar value out there. If one compares the V6 against the Audi, BMW, 370Z, Mustang, etc. I think you will find a fine comparison. I find the Camaro's interior well on par with the more expensive competition, too.

Just for the record, I have owned a boatload of the German and British cars (start with a 1974 Lotus Europa S). I've owned a 350Z Roadster and currently own a Honda Ridgeline.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Maybe I'm not that well informed on entry level performance cars, but I can't think of a single rear wheel drive performance car that is really entry level priced. The WRX (AWD) is close to $26K in base form. The Mazda Miata is $30K and up. The 370Z is $38K base. The BRZ is $25K or more.

For my two cents (only worth a single penny in today's economy), the Camaro is the best dollar for dollar value out there. If one compares the V6 against the Audi, BMW, 370Z, Mustang, etc. I think you will find a fine comparison. I find the Camaro's interior well on par with the more expensive competition, too.

Just for the record, I have owned a boatload of the German and British cars (start with a 1974 Lotus Europa S). I've owned a 350Z Roadster and currently own a Honda Ridgeline.

Agreed. They actually lowered the price of a 370z a couple years ago. A base starts out now at $29,990, which is decent but it is hard to justify buying one when there are better values out there.

[Marine Corps]

Originally Posted by Posaune

If the 6th Gen cost billions, GM has a problem. 5th gen cost 500 million.

Really, $500,000,000. Well, I guess I may be wrong. I'm not the expert. Perhaps you are. It was and is a lot of money to research, design, and bring to market a new and much improved Gen5 Camaro.

[DrkPhx]

This would be a perfect opportunity to revive the Monza name.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Baywire

I was only using it as an example of GM having the capabilities to transfer from one platform to another. Even if it came to adapting with a new generation. Clearly there are even better options.

My point was that GM will spout some BS about it being too expensive to research and develop "new platforms" when they already have viable platforms to use.

Even if they went the Audi and Mercedes route making FWD biased AWD vehicles. As depending on the model Quattro is FWD biased (usually is base models like A3 and A4) and 4Matic is FWD biased in CLA/A series but are still AWD being able to send power to the back wheels. (This would actually take R&D since GM doesn't currently produce an AWD system like this) But in the end it would be for the better to do one or the other.

When it comes down to it companies who have been adapting FWD to AWD ,like Ford and VW with the Focus RS and Golf R, they will be miles ahead of GM when they finally come to the realization that they have to start using FI and AWD (At least having the ability to option into it if not standard)

The term "Extensive Engineering" is made up by companies/engineers who are too scared/lazy to change their ways set in stone. Usually for the financial reason "if it ain't broke..."

Watch any "chop shop" "resto" car show. Often shoving new tech that doesn't fit into old cars often removing floor panels and adjusting frames to fit different chassis, engines or transmissions. No I'm not claiming they do it in the same time they show it on TV, however they do it in a relatively short and safe manner. I'm willing to bet if you gave a team (5-10) of mechanics and technicians a Cruze and an AWD GM sedan that the Cruze will physically be able to fit on, they could do it in 2 weeks and have a running AWD Cruze.

You are grossly over simplifying this.

First, it is expensive.

Second, regardless of the expense, you need to have volume to spread that cost over. So low volume sales of AWD Cruze would make it impossible.

Third, although crappy interiors, GM had a couple of hot 2.0T SS versions of the Cobalt and HHR. Although both cars sold well enough, the SS versions sold like poop and were discontinued.

And your having watched Monster Garage is giving you an incomplete idea on what it would take to modify and existing architecture (Delta) to go AWD. It's a really, really big deal. Just because some mechanics could hack and cobble one up doesn't make it a car you'd ever want to buy.

And having "been there, done that", extensive engineering really means extensive engineering. Sorry to burst your bubble on that.

Coming out with a car off an existing architecture like the Camaro off of Alpha is a monstrous undertaking. It takes years of planning, more years of engineering and execution and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to put into mass production. A one off by a few mechanics in a couple of weeks doesn't even come close. And just to be clear, GM DOES build development mules with a bunch of mechanics and engineers. That's about the first 5 minutes of what it takes to actually implement the product.

[DeliveryMan]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are grossly over simplifying this.

First, it is expensive.

Second, regardless of the expense, you need to have volume to spread that cost over. So low volume sales of AWD Cruze would make it impossible.

Third, although crappy interiors, GM had a couple of hot 2.0T SS versions of the Cobalt and HHR. Although both cars sold well enough, the SS versions sold like poop and were discontinued.

And your having watched Monster Garage is giving you an incomplete idea on what it would take to modify and existing architecture (Delta) to go AWD. It's a really, really big deal. Just because some mechanics could hack and cobble one up doesn't make it a car you'd ever want to buy.

And having "been there, done that", extensive engineering really means extensive engineering. Sorry to burst your bubble on that.

Coming out with a car off an existing architecture like the Camaro off of Alpha is a monstrous undertaking. It takes years of planning, more years of engineering and execution and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to put into mass production. A one off by a few mechanics in a couple of weeks doesn't even come close. And just to be clear, GM DOES build development mules with a bunch of mechanics and engineers. That's about the first 5 minutes of what it takes to actually implement the product.

Number 3 you get it.
There is too much fantasy talk going on.

Buick Avista RWD Coupe is a perfect example. There is a struggle to make a business case for that car, and that one would be on the RWD ALpha platform.
GM knows that even if that car was produced, how many consumers will actually shell out the mid $40's to low $50s that car will go for? maybe 12,000 to 15,000 a year if they are lucky?

I love Coupes and sport cars, but the automobile enthusiast is a small percent of the consumers.

ALl these ppl on the Camaro6 forum are great (we all want more sport/performance cars)and I also wish that there were more roadsters in the market and an entry level performance car in Chevrolet's line-up. But this is a new era and it is expensive to produce an automobile.
The sedan market is even shrinking...unfortunately the CUV is the king and it truly bites-that is the reality though.

[dorifto65]

Chevy already has a great entry level, 4 cylinder, rwd sporty car. It's the base model Camaro. I drove one and thought it was very good cheap car. Light years ahead of the BRZ/FRS. I ended up buying a 2SS but if I was short on cash, there would be a base Camaro in my garage.

[dpevans]

Just saw the average price of a new car hit 35k. they are not getting cheaper and with government safety and emission regulations I see no price break in the near future.

[Baywire]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are grossly over simplifying this.

First, it is expensive.

Second, regardless of the expense, you need to have volume to spread that cost over. So low volume sales of AWD Cruze would make it impossible.

Third, although crappy interiors, GM had a couple of hot 2.0T SS versions of the Cobalt and HHR. Although both cars sold well enough, the SS versions sold like poop and were discontinued.

And your having watched Monster Garage is giving you an incomplete idea on what it would take to modify and existing architecture (Delta) to go AWD. It's a really, really big deal. Just because some mechanics could hack and cobble one up doesn't make it a car you'd ever want to buy.

And having "been there, done that", extensive engineering really means extensive engineering. Sorry to burst your bubble on that.

Coming out with a car off an existing architecture like the Camaro off of Alpha is a monstrous undertaking. It takes years of planning, more years of engineering and execution and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to put into mass production. A one off by a few mechanics in a couple of weeks doesn't even come close. And just to be clear, GM DOES build development mules with a bunch of mechanics and engineers. That's about the first 5 minutes of what it takes to actually implement the product.

I don't think I'm grossly oversimplifying it at all.

Corporations overcomplicate the car making process through bureaucracy. Making cars is an investment business, you don't just make a car and see profits that's just not how it works. (also it's EXTREMELY laughable that the LTG costs $9000, since the engine specs wise is worth maybe half of that?) Please note that none of my argument is about how cheap it will be for GM to produce AWD for their sedans, my point is that GM uses cost as an excuse NOT to do it. My point is to spend the money now, see profits later... Well because... That's how investments work?

GMG has nothing to do with my concept of changing cars. They took the Pontiac G6 GXP coupe and turned it into the GXP.R going from FWD V6 to a RWD LS2 and I'm certain it took them less than a month to finish making it. Basically because they took an 08 GXP and placed it on a 05 GTO. Race teams do this on regular basis. (Yea it costs more to make a race car than an every day commuter car)

And I'm not even asking for a AWD Cruze Subaru STI killer "cause I need 400hp in my 20k car". Naw, I want an AWD Cruze with ~200hp for ~22k because Subaru seems to be able to do it just fine. They make 153hp Cruze for 16k they also make a 153hp Cruze for 23k. So... What did they do to it that costs 7k? See FCA, VW/Audi, Ford, Lexus as AWD options usually cost around 2-5k and that leaves 2-5k to spruce up the power based on that huge price gap the Cruze already has that apparently adds nothing to the car. Please note, this is not a power grab, this is not some car enthusiast thing. A lot of car companies seem to be able to do it, GM is clearly no different.

This is also not to mention the vast number of other cars that have FWD and AWD versions of the same car. It wasn't too expensive for VW to make a FWD and AWD CC. Toyota didn't think it was too expensive to make a FWD and AWD Sienna. Chrysler didn't think it was too expensive to make a FWD and AWD 200. And that's just three models I picked out of a hat. Subaru seems to think AWD is good for all of their cars except for the BRZ, go figure.

I guess I'm living in a fantasy world where GM does something that the tons of other brands and itself are capable of and I guess that's fine.

Topic of "Buick did XYZ and it sold poorly":
Buick should have died when Pontiac and Saturn did. There's no reason for the brand, it doesn't sell well and it just makes copies of the other cars GM already makes expect worse quality than Cadillac (interiors are no better) and less performance than Chevy (heavier and slower). What's the point of this brand, cheap and slow? Cadillac has a perfect entry level fleet GM doesn't need this brand at all.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by Baywire

I don't think I'm grossly oversimplifying it at all.

Corporations overcomplicate the car making process through bureaucracy. Making cars is an investment business, you don't just make a car and see profits that's just not how it works. (also it's EXTREMELY laughable that the LTG costs $9000, since the engine specs wise is worth maybe half of that?) Please note that none of my argument is about how cheap it will be for GM to produce AWD for their sedans, my point is that GM uses cost as an excuse NOT to do it. My point is to spend the money now, see profits later... Well because... That's how investments work?

GMG has nothing to do with my concept of changing cars. They took the Pontiac G6 GXP coupe and turned it into the GXP.R going from FWD V6 to a RWD LS2 and I'm certain it took them less than a month to finish making it. Basically because they took an 08 GXP and placed it on a 05 GTO. Race teams do this on regular basis. (Yea it costs more to make a race car than an every day commuter car)

And I'm not even asking for a AWD Cruze Subaru STI killer "cause I need 400hp in my 20k car". Naw, I want an AWD Cruze with ~200hp for ~22k because Subaru seems to be able to do it just fine. They make 153hp Cruze for 16k they also make a 153hp Cruze for 23k. So... What did they do to it that costs 7k? See FCA, VW/Audi, Ford, Lexus as AWD options usually cost around 2-5k and that leaves 2-5k to spruce up the power based on that huge price gap the Cruze already has that apparently adds nothing to the car. Please note, this is not a power grab, this is not some car enthusiast thing. A lot of car companies seem to be able to do it, GM is clearly no different.

This is also not to mention the vast number of other cars that have FWD and AWD versions of the same car. It wasn't too expensive for VW to make a FWD and AWD CC. Toyota didn't think it was too expensive to make a FWD and AWD Sienna. Chrysler didn't think it was too expensive to make a FWD and AWD 200. And that's just three models I picked out of a hat. Subaru seems to think AWD is good for all of their cars except for the BRZ, go figure.

I guess I'm living in a fantasy world where GM does something that the tons of other brands and itself are capable of and I guess that's fine.

Topic of "Buick did XYZ and it sold poorly":
Buick should have died when Pontiac and Saturn did. There's no reason for the brand, it doesn't sell well and it just makes copies of the other cars GM already makes expect worse quality than Cadillac (interiors are no better) and less performance than Chevy (heavier and slower). What's the point of this brand, cheap and slow? Cadillac has a perfect entry level fleet GM doesn't need this brand at all.

You have a source that shows it cost GM $9000 to manufacture and factory install the LTG?

The simple fact that the crate engine available in the retail market costs less than that lets you know it doesn't cost GM $9000.

[Baywire]

Originally Posted by Posaune

You have a source that shows it cost GM $9000 to manufacture and factory install the LTG?

The simple fact that the crate engine available in the retail market costs less than that lets you know it doesn't cost GM $9000.

It's on their website.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance...-cylinder.html

"MSRP $9,000*"

"*MSRP excludes tax, shipping and installation."