Is the ZL1 to escape the Gas guzzler tax? - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

*radz28* · 03-08-2011, 10:10 AM

I had NO idea 'V had 4.15! I thought they had 3.73s, max'... FAIL on my part.

I'm certain GM is doing everything they can to avoid the tax. ZL1 will get the next gen EPS, so I expect a little higher efficiency there. I think the deliberate actions to control aerodynamics can help a bit, even though they were pushing for downforce, which can add drag. However - when the LLT came from CTS, it got some more power (which I'm guessing was from a little easier/efficient powertrain packaging) when going into CAMARO. I believe the intake and exhaust will have less restriction, on the whole, because I think the NVH won't be as strict on ZL1. The dual-mode won't influence efficiency, but I'm sure the standard-mode will probably be a little more efficient than on 'V, and I see less baffling and resonators in the intake (of course - that might not be the production intake).

However - when I see what 'V achieves, it worries me a little. On the whole - my biggest problem with the tax is just paying extra for it. I could care less what the mileage is. I think it's going to be pretty close. I'm sure the gearing in the transmission is going to be about the same, so it's hard to say.

What I'd like to see is a 3.73 standard ratio - to just sneak past the GG and 4.15s in a performance package. Seeing GM go to, what, 2.92s or something for the V6 for fuel economy leads me to think they aren't beyond considering something like this, so I think it could be reasonable. 4.15s would certainly bump-up the performance, and for a car like this, I think there wouldn't be too many complaints

THE EVIL TW1N · 03-08-2011, 10:43 AM

what was the mileage difference between the v6 caddies and v6 camis?

*radz28* · 03-08-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

what was the mileage difference between the v6 caddies and v6 camis?

29 MPG for CAMARO (A6) (2LS CAMARO gets 30 MPG w/M6 & 2.92 gears)
26 MPG CTS (A6 only)

*DGthe3* · 03-08-2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

i think minimum mileage has to hit 22.5mpg.

they might find a way to eek through but i bet its gonna be tough.

Its not based on the window sticker though. Well, not exactly. Its the same test, but for the window sticker they apply a correction factor (since the original test was grossly inaccurate) resulting in the sticker being a lower number than what is used for calculating the GG tax. This is also done for the CAFE scores, which may even be the same figures used for the GG tax since both CAFE and GG seem to roughly equate to highway fuel economy.

The ZR1 is listed as being 20.4 mpg combined (with an EPA sticker of 14/20). I couldn't find the CTS-V listed on the EPA's website. But anyway, there isn't much of a chance of the ZL1 being 10% more efficient than the ZR1. If anything, it might be something like 5% worse than the ZR1. If so, expect the GG tax to be up to $2100, though I consider this is very unlikely. I'm thinking it will probably be in the same bracket as the ZR1, which has a $1700 fee.

besherman · 03-08-2011, 07:54 PM

Couldn't care less about the gas guzzler tax.

If they offer a ZL1 convertible, I am buying one.

Taxes be damned.

*radz28* · 03-09-2011, 09:09 AM

It just stinks to have to pay for that. OH WELL!

Z_Rocks · 03-09-2011, 09:38 AM

Now in some states, if [I think] the price of the car is over a limit, you also get charged with "Luxury" tax every year. I wonder if ZL1 falls into that category. I doubt it falls into "exotic" tax category.
I know a friend who moved to Alabama with her Mercedes S class and at the time of registration was about to get hit by a large amount of luxury tax. The funny part is that, she took the car to a Ford dealer and bought a new Explorer for the same amount the Mercedes was worth and she didn't pay any Luxury Tax.

Secondly, since this is "Officially" considered as high performance two door sport car, how is the insurance going to milk us?

*radz28* · 03-09-2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z_Rocks

Now in some states, if [I think] the price of the car is over a limit, you also get charged with "Luxury" tax every year. I wonder if ZL1 falls into that category. I doubt it falls into "exotic" tax category.
I know a friend who moved to Alabama with her Mercedes S class and at the time of registration was hit by a large amount of luxury tax.

Secondly, since this "Officially" considered as high performance two sport car, how is the insurance going to milk us?

I don't want to hear about insurance, LOL. If you want to talk about a scam, there's one right there, LOL.

Great points

*The_Blur* · 03-09-2011, 10:16 AM

I'd bet on having to pay the gas guzzler tax. The only way around it is to call elected officials and ask to repeal CAFE and gas guzzler tax laws. Unfortunately, car enthusiasts rarely organize to lobby.

JerseyMonte · 03-10-2011, 09:37 AM

Auto manufactureres adhere to the Corporate average fuel ecnonmy
they take an average of every model, and it has to pass the government
mandated average. This includes trucks. With the introduction of the new Volt it will give GM a chance to produce a few more vehicles with lower MPG ratings

Quote:

Originally Posted by armysig

Ok, this is a pretty loaded question. We all know that GM will not confirm the details of the car just yet.

Now here is my theory to why I will say "Yes, the ZL1 will not be hit with the gas guzzler tax."

ZL1 LSA to receive 3.73 gearing, while the CTS-V coupe, LSA has 4.15's. and the fuel economy on the CTS-V is 12 in the city and 18 on the highway, which would get tagged for the gas guzzler tax (I think).
The Ford Mustang GT-500 is now rated at 15mpg in the city and 23 on the highway, with the 5.4 liter supercharged engine.
GM has stated that they are gunning to beat the Ford GT-500 in all aspects of the vehicle competition, I would have to assume this includes fuel mileage.

So there are a few points that I have found. My reference for the CTS-V coupe is off of the GM site here

While the Ford GT 500 is out of this months Motor Trend, April 2011, article Five Figure Phenoms, Page 34.

I may or may not be correct, but I would love to hear some in site on my theory. I know there are a lot of good engine builders out there, maybe they can shed some light on the subject.

thePill · 03-10-2011, 11:14 AM

The official EPA numbers include 5 different test, City, Highway, High Speed, Air Conditioning and Cold Temperature. Here is a link that Number 3 provided and is very helpful http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

The overall final EPA rating is drastically affected by the High Speed, A/C and Cold temperature that were introduced in 2008. The EPA Highway and City figures (or what’s on the sticker) takes those 3 new test into consideration and ultimately affect the final rating.

The Gas Guzzler Tax http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm figures are taken from a Dyno run that is composed of 55% city driving and 45% highway driving. That means weight and aerodynamics do not affect the GG tax average. According to the recent figures of the GT500 and as stated the ZR1, the average MPG is usually around the highway mark, although some are not. Here is why, since the GG tax dyno run does not account for high speeds, A/C and Cold temp, it is purely calculated between the real (or dyno'd) city and highway MPG. The GT500 passed the GG tax and has a 23 highway rating which would mean that the average MGP would have to have been higher than 22.5 which would have been impossible with a 15 city rating.

What is happening is, the actual vehicles ratings would be much higher as long as the 3 new test would not have been implemented in 2008. Where the GT500's EPA rating is 15/23 the actual fuel mileage (as long as it is driven properly) could be much higher. I drove home last week and wanted to see if I could get 30mpg average out of my 5.0, it is advertised at 26. I averaged a 30.2mpg over 21 miles at an average speed of 48mph. At 50mph, a vehicle like the GT500 with a 23 highway rating could be as high as 27mpg as long as it is driven correctly.

The key thing to remember here is that the EPA numbers are calculated much differently than the GG tax is which could make it easier for a vehicle to clear the tax.

Now, the gearing comes into play. Many of the test conducted on the CTS-V had the 6 speed using a 3.73 gear ratio. I have not found another publication that says differently. although, Cadillac's website says that the CTS-V does use a 4.15 final gear ratio and that would have a huge affect on the fuel economy. Before we can begin to figure the final mpg's, that has to be confirmed...

Weight would have an affect on city driving more than anything and aero would affect the highway rating but both would only affect real world driving and not a dyno run.

03-08-2011, 10:10 AM	#15
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,225 View My Garage	I had NO idea 'V had 4.15! I thought they had 3.73s, max'... FAIL on my part. I'm certain GM is doing everything they can to avoid the tax. ZL1 will get the next gen EPS, so I expect a little higher efficiency there. I think the deliberate actions to control aerodynamics can help a bit, even though they were pushing for downforce, which can add drag. However - when the LLT came from CTS, it got some more power (which I'm guessing was from a little easier/efficient powertrain packaging) when going into CAMARO. I believe the intake and exhaust will have less restriction, on the whole, because I think the NVH won't be as strict on ZL1. The dual-mode won't influence efficiency, but I'm sure the standard-mode will probably be a little more efficient than on 'V, and I see less baffling and resonators in the intake (of course - that might not be the production intake). However - when I see what 'V achieves, it worries me a little. On the whole - my biggest problem with the tax is just paying extra for it. I could care less what the mileage is. I think it's going to be pretty close. I'm sure the gearing in the transmission is going to be about the same, so it's hard to say. What I'd like to see is a 3.73 standard ratio - to just sneak past the GG and 4.15s in a performance package. Seeing GM go to, what, 2.92s or something for the V6 for fuel economy leads me to think they aren't beyond considering something like this, so I think it could be reasonable. 4.15s would certainly bump-up the performance, and for a car like this, I think there wouldn't be too many complaints __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

03-09-2011, 09:09 AM	#20
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,225 View My Garage	It just stinks to have to pay for that. OH WELL! __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

03-09-2011, 10:16 AM	#23
The_Blur Moderator Drives: 2018 Harley-Davidson Street Bob Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 14,769	I'd bet on having to pay the gas guzzler tax. The only way around it is to call elected officials and ask to repeal CAFE and gas guzzler tax laws. Unfortunately, car enthusiasts rarely organize to lobby. __________________ RDP Motorsport//GEN5DIY//Cultrag Performance//JPSS//Rodgets Chevrolet// Operation Demon//Buy at Invoice//RACECARWEAR RESPECT ALL CARS. LOVE YOUR OWN. warn 145:159 ban

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03-08-2011, 10:43 AM	#16
THE EVIL TW1N Banned Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: CA Posts: 2,925	what was the mileage difference between the v6 caddies and v6 camis?

03-08-2011, 07:54 PM	#19
besherman Drives: 2008 GMC Denali Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oakland, Oregon Posts: 75	Couldn't care less about the gas guzzler tax. If they offer a ZL1 convertible, I am buying one. Taxes be damned.

03-09-2011, 09:38 AM	#21
Z_Rocks Drives: everyone crazy... Join Date: May 2009 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,109	Now in some states, if [I think] the price of the car is over a limit, you also get charged with "Luxury" tax every year. I wonder if ZL1 falls into that category. I doubt it falls into "exotic" tax category. I know a friend who moved to Alabama with her Mercedes S class and at the time of registration was about to get hit by a large amount of luxury tax. The funny part is that, she took the car to a Ford dealer and bought a new Explorer for the same amount the Mercedes was worth and she didn't pay any Luxury Tax. Secondly, since this is "Officially" considered as high performance two door sport car, how is the insurance going to milk us?

03-10-2011, 11:14 AM	#25
thePill Account Suspended Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany Posts: 1,268	The official EPA numbers include 5 different test, City, Highway, High Speed, Air Conditioning and Cold Temperature. Here is a link that Number 3 provided and is very helpful http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml The overall final EPA rating is drastically affected by the High Speed, A/C and Cold temperature that were introduced in 2008. The EPA Highway and City figures (or what’s on the sticker) takes those 3 new test into consideration and ultimately affect the final rating. The Gas Guzzler Tax http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm figures are taken from a Dyno run that is composed of 55% city driving and 45% highway driving. That means weight and aerodynamics do not affect the GG tax average. According to the recent figures of the GT500 and as stated the ZR1, the average MPG is usually around the highway mark, although some are not. Here is why, since the GG tax dyno run does not account for high speeds, A/C and Cold temp, it is purely calculated between the real (or dyno'd) city and highway MPG. The GT500 passed the GG tax and has a 23 highway rating which would mean that the average MGP would have to have been higher than 22.5 which would have been impossible with a 15 city rating. What is happening is, the actual vehicles ratings would be much higher as long as the 3 new test would not have been implemented in 2008. Where the GT500's EPA rating is 15/23 the actual fuel mileage (as long as it is driven properly) could be much higher. I drove home last week and wanted to see if I could get 30mpg average out of my 5.0, it is advertised at 26. I averaged a 30.2mpg over 21 miles at an average speed of 48mph. At 50mph, a vehicle like the GT500 with a 23 highway rating could be as high as 27mpg as long as it is driven correctly. The key thing to remember here is that the EPA numbers are calculated much differently than the GG tax is which could make it easier for a vehicle to clear the tax. Now, the gearing comes into play. Many of the test conducted on the CTS-V had the 6 speed using a 3.73 gear ratio. I have not found another publication that says differently. although, Cadillac's website says that the CTS-V does use a 4.15 final gear ratio and that would have a huge affect on the fuel economy. Before we can begin to figure the final mpg's, that has to be confirmed... Weight would have an affect on city driving more than anything and aero would affect the highway rating but both would only affect real world driving and not a dyno run.