[90503]

Originally Posted by Capricio

This still seems way too high under the current conditions, tightening credit, high interest rates, and rapid depreciation. I think our $14k BEV is an easier pill to swallow with more trade-in/cash equity as a down payment, or just buying outright, and losing considerably less with depreciation.

It's pretty hard to shop for an EV in the 14K to 30K when there are none to be had....lol

14K cash for 170 mile range car. I wonder if anyone would bother to take a look at that?...hmmmmmm.....lol

[Malbjey]

Originally Posted by Capricio

This still seems way too high under the current conditions, tightening credit, high interest rates, and rapid depreciation. I think our $14k BEV is an easier pill to swallow with more trade-in/cash equity as a down payment, or just buying outright, and losing considerably less with depreciation.

Eh, have you seen the average price of cars now? There are compact cars (i.e. Civic, Mazda 3, etc) that sticker for over 30K now. You can still get them in the mid 20s, but overall car prices are ridiculous. So I can absolutely see 30K to 40K EVs being considered 'value' propositions. You can't even get a new ICE for $14K in USA, so expecting that for an EV is totally unrealistic.

[Capricio]

Well, we'll never know what the Chinese pricing will look like until they become available here. Even if our cheapo CCP cars can't get here as cheaply as we hope, I'm guessing they will come in 20% or more less expensive than any comparable western OEM's product. Unless of course we tariff them to death, then they won't come at all.

In the meantime, maybe some bigger anti-inflationary subsidies? like... oh, i dunno, $15k rebates from the government, means based, and only on BEVs under $50k or whatever? Gotta keep doubling down, since we can't roll back, because tailpipe emissions have to hit zero before all other sources, because of reasons.

[90503]

....From that article:

"Detroit auto execs are scrambling to revise their electric portfolios to match up with the change in demand. Ford CEO Jim Farley said last month the company would be spending more money on mass-market electric vehicles, and a recent report from Bloomberg said the automaker recently delayed an upcoming three-row EV to focus on a trio of $25,000 electric vehicles."

Low cost can be done. China beat them to it. The automaker's trying to convince everyone that 40-50K is the new "affordable" and low cost, isn't fooling anyone. And now they're caught flat-footed. Too bad it took the CCP to show the US automakers what competition is and the actual market reality for EVs.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Malbjey

Eh, have you seen the average price of cars now? There are compact cars (i.e. Civic, Mazda 3, etc) that sticker for over 30K now. You can still get them in the mid 20s, but overall car prices are ridiculous. So I can absolutely see 30K to 40K EVs being considered 'value' propositions. You can't even get a new ICE for $14K in USA, so expecting that for an EV is totally unrealistic.

The average transaction price for a new vehicle purchased in the US in 2023 was over $48,000.

https://b2b.kbb.com/dealer-resources...%20year%20ago.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Malbjey

Eh, have you seen the average price of cars now? There are compact cars (i.e. Civic, Mazda 3, etc) that sticker for over 30K now. You can still get them in the mid 20s, but overall car prices are ridiculous. So I can absolutely see 30K to 40K EVs being considered 'value' propositions. You can't even get a new ICE for $14K in USA, so expecting that for an EV is totally unrealistic.

$14k sub-compacts were a thing not that long ago.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Why does anyone think cheap Chinese cars are going be anything other than complete pieces of shit?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Why does anyone think cheap Chinese cars are going be anything other than complete pieces of shit?

Depends on how cheap is cheap. Chinese OEMs are smart enough to know that low price is irrelevant if the product sucks. Trying to remember if those Chevrolet Sparks flew off the shelf at $14k... No I’m not. They didn’t. If Chinese-brand vehicles make it to the US expect them to be at around the same prices as the vehicles they compete with.

There are already Chinese vehicles being sold in the US. And they are all high priced and high quality. They just aren’t being sold by Chinese brands.

I rode in a Chinese-made MG 5 on my last trip to Mexico. Not a bad car. Felt like a lower content VW Jetta. Not on my list of purchases, but then my tastes in vehicle are rarely close to mainstream.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG5_%28automobile%29

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Why does anyone think cheap Chinese cars are going be anything other than complete pieces of shit?

Mostly from the media, saying western OEMs should be scared. Engineering companies picking them apart and not finding much to improve on their processes. European reviews fawning over them. Youtube videos that appear to show attractive, well furnished cars, with decent materials inside.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Trying to remember if those Chevrolet Sparks flew off the shelf at $14k... No I’m not. They didn’t.

Maybe not, but, they didn't depreciate 50% in a year and half. The government didn't have to pay anyone to buy them at their listed price, either.

Back in the day... You could finance a car at a reasonable rate. Gas was cheaper. Credit was easier to get. People felt comfortable buying a more expensive product. Market demands change with the conditions.

Would a cheap (Chinese) EV in the US be such a bad thing?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Maybe not, but, they didn't depreciate 50% in a year and half. The government didn't have to pay anyone to buy them at their listed price, either.

Back in the day... You could finance a car at a reasonable rate. Gas was cheaper. Credit was easier to get. People felt comfortable buying a more expensive product. Market demands change with the conditions.

Would a cheap (Chinese) EV in the US be such a bad thing?

Which brings us back to the thread topic.

[genxer]

The Spark was tiny!. -And it had the Sonic right on top of it. -And that had the lighter 2nd Cruze right on top of it. -And urban hatches were morphing into small CUVs.

In this country, there should always be a place for cheap, gas, large-orbit, rural commuter cars. But regulations help get them killed by being lower margin. EV necessitates a smaller orbit of driving aspiration.

The market is captured, having a domestic industry can be held for ransom whether it goes to China or anyone else. That should be more clear when Ford and gm's EV spend to protect the money segments can't trickle down to replace cheaper ICE volume segments.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

The Spark was tiny!. -And it had the Sonic right on top of it. -And that had the lighter 2nd Cruze right on top of it. -And urban hatches were morphing into small CUVs.

In this country, there should always be a place for cheap, gas, large-orbit, rural commuter cars. But regulations help get them killed by being lower margin. EV necessitates a smaller orbit of driving aspiration.

The market is captured, having a domestic industry can be held for ransom whether it goes to China or anyone else. That should be more clear when Ford and gm's EV spend to protect the money segments can't trickle down to replace cheaper ICE volume segments.

All of that is true. But whose job is it to fix it? OEMs are not going to take on the challenge. They will watch their “back door” to make certain nobody is slipping in with low cost but compliant product. At this point, there are no takers. Not even the Chinese. To paraphrase an old saying, “low cost, compliant, quality…pick two”. That’s why I find Chevy Trax and Buick Envista to be remarkable products. They almost have all three lined up. They start at $22k and $24k respectively and have a decent amount of tech and content at that price. They are not “Spark-level” econoboxes. Think of them as the replacements for Chevy Cruze and Buick Verano. Ford and Chevy will get to positions where their EV offerings will see pricing in the low $30ks, but not any lower than that. But still, keep in mind that for the past couple of years, average vehicle transaction price is closer to $50k than it is to $40k.

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

All of that is true. But whose job is it to fix it? OEMs are not going to take on the challenge. They will watch their “back door” to make certain nobody is slipping in with low cost but compliant product. At this point, there are no takers. Not even the Chinese. To paraphrase an old saying, “low cost, compliant, quality…pick two”. That’s why I find Chevy Trax and Buick Envista to be remarkable products. They almost have all three lined up. They start at $22k and $24k respectively and have a decent amount of tech and content at that price. They are not “Spark-level” econoboxes. Think of them as the replacements for Chevy Cruze and Buick Verano. Ford and Chevy will get to positions where their EV offerings will see pricing in the low $30ks, but not any lower than that. But still, keep in mind that for the past couple of years, average vehicle transaction price is closer to $50k than it is to $40k.

Yeah numbers don't lie....
And why is that? Because you can't buy a cheaper EV. So people choose from the price and what is actually available. So this average price looks high. It isn't because all buyers WANT to spend that much. I didn't buy one until the price went way down on a small SUV that fit my needs.
If the Equinox was priced low I was very interested but it doesn't exist and doubt it ever will and be competitive. With the GM and Ford costs to produce things plus dealers rip offs I don't think they'll ever compete in lower priced products as long as other options exist like Tesla. I would bet a sizeable wager that GMs $25k BEV won't come close to the same proposed Tesla at that price. Just won't happen I'd bet on it.
For example I'll reference how old I am in trying to buy a Fiero. It was so innovative and looked amazing on paper. I went to the dealers and they insisted on bending you over to buy one! The Dealership model without MSRP rules is the final point of failure! I couldn't see getting ripped off so waited until it was reasonable priced in the used market. After getting one I was underwhelmed by how uncomfortable it was. No storage space. And worst that Iron Duke 4cyl gave both bad hp and mpg for it's output! The CEL couldn't be solved by the dealer replacing parts many times until I sold it.
When the Fiero had poor sales and was discontinued I knew very well why. No news articles said the actual reasons. They do mention how the car itself improved with the V6 but that didn't solve the dealership problems and by then the people wanting it had already been turned off and bought a different car.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Now I should expect some similar experience with a low cost BEV from GM to be different. Ok I'm holding my breath now.
Edit: how I think dealership rip offs could be more limited by Ford GM Stillantis is to offer an online purchase as Tesla does, with delivery to a location. The dealership could facilitate the final papers and transfer and get only half the profit the MSRP sale would give them, the other half just stays with GM. This would give them some incentive to process the vehicle but even more incentive to just sell at MSRP so they could double their profit or the buyer could just go online for MSRP purchase. Everyone is online and this wouldn't be anything to do. A walk in customer might still get ripped off if there weren't Rules to not sell over the MSRP but ability to buy online would at least help in this big dealer problem on popular vehicles.