[Hesh]

Originally Posted by thePill

I like comparing what a manufacturer suggest the required time of installation is. In this case, it takes twice as long for an LS cam. I also like to talk to those that actually do these jobs for a living and use that as a comparison. From now on though, I will just ask you since what you say on this thread isn't classified as hearsay but as fact. I will sleep better now that I know the people making the parts and working on these cars don't know what they are doing. I find it interesting that a skilled C6 shop can change a cam in about 8 hours but you somehow have decreased that time dramatically .

This is entertaining....

Acutally Pill your right as usual. To drop the cradle is the correct way to change the cam. Have done several myself and its the easiest way. now if your talking 4th gen camaro, then you dont have to do the cradle, vette yes its a hell of alot easier. There is no damn room in the vette to do the work. 5th gen camaro havent done so dont know.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Hesh

Acutally Pill your right as usual. To drop the cradle is the correct way to change the cam. Have done several myself and its the easiest way. now if your talking 4th gen camaro, then you dont have to do the cradle, vette yes its a hell of alot easier. There is no damn room in the vette to do the work. 5th gen camaro havent done so dont know.

Cam change times on OHV engines are vastly dependent on the type of vehicle. I know that it is far easier and faster to drop the cradle on a C5/C6 and a 4th Gen LT1 cam swap was somewhat more complex than an LS1 (it has been almost 10 years for me). The LS3 should be easier but the average installation times are between 8-12 hours.


Back on topic, I have heard from more sources that Ford turned their noses up at another big bore modular idea (Cammer 5.0). Therefore, this new 5.8 most likely will be a new engine that was conceived in a similar fashion that the 5.0 was. Using tooling from the 5.4 and possibly from the 5.0 (5.0 blocks are made in Romero), the cost to build the engine are drastically reduced. I could have swore that the Nurburgring Cobra's sounded like a Condor 5.4 because the 5.0 and 5.4 use different firing orders giving them distinct sounds. Since this is a new engine being based on both the 5.0 and 5.4, either firing order could be used... I have also heard that this engine will use TiVCT not only for the smooth power curve but also to escape the gas guzzler tax on a 600-620hp V8. I will also bet that engine weight will also come down slightly but additional equipment should see some more weight added to the whole package but nothing too crazy (about 20-40lbs). Weight is still being looked at and a simple transmission swap and wheel upgrade could see this Cobra dip into the ceiling of the 3700lb range (3799 if they are lucky). This is all rumors at this point but I have heard this from more than a handful of people...

I have heard that Red is at Lommel and Black is still home in Michigan (I am not going to Belgium or Michigan to confirm this)... Their benchmark car is from Japan... I guess it makes sense since Ford gave Nissan PTWA for the GTR and Nissan is loaning Ford the Track Ap for the Mustang.... I wonder what else they got for the PTWA . Anyway, we are possibly looking at a power to weight ratio of 6.1 which will excite those that wish to race the car. With the addition of 0.4 liters and using the old Eaton M112, the 5.8 would be capable of close to 600hp (591hp, 547tq) as is, an additional 0.5 liter supercharger will easily push this monster over the 600hp mark. Using TiVCT and extra displacement will reduce the stress on the engine that force induction is associated with while maintaining 23mpg highway rating.

Edit: As of late September, the 2013's have been on lockdown so info will be harder to come by until next month.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Hesh

Acutally Pill your right as usual. To drop the cradle is the correct way to change the cam. Have done several myself and its the easiest way. now if your talking 4th gen camaro, then you dont have to do the cradle, vette yes its a hell of alot easier. There is no damn room in the vette to do the work. 5th gen camaro havent done so dont know.

Anywho the 5.8 V8 in the upcoming GT-500 isn't going to make it much faster without the ability to get the power to the ground. I hope Ford is working on that. The way I see it even if the GT-500 has a power advantage, the ZL-1 has a Traction advantage with Stronger axles, stronger
rear end, Beefier Wheel/Tire package, Magna Ride 3.0 and Performance traction managment. Just have to wait and see.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

Anywho the 5.8 V8 in the upcoming GT-500 isn't going to make it much faster without the ability to get the power to the ground. I hope Ford is working on that. The way I see it even if the GT-500 has a power advantage, the ZL-1 has a Traction advantage with Stronger axles, stronger
rear end, Beefier Wheel/Tire package, Magna Ride 3.0 and Performance traction managment. Just have to wait and see.

There seems to be a lot of confusion between the GT500's traction during acceleration and it's traction on a road course. There has never been issues with the SVT cars ability to turn, in fact, the 2011 car was very fast at every US track. When you figure in the tight turns of some of America's most difficult tracks, weight becomes a primary issue. For instance, the CTS-V is usually always faster stock to 60mph and in the 1/4 mile. However, the CTS-V was beaten by the '11 GT500 at every single comparison on US tracks. The differences between the 2010 and 2011 were small, 102lbs lighter, 10hp more and a tuned SVT package had the '11 going 6-10 seconds faster than the '10. The GT500's standing VIR time is almost as fast as the Z06 and the GTR, so I would say that traction isn't an issue... if they were to add more brakes, suspension and tire to a 600+hp GT500, I am afraid that reality will be far from Nurburgring...

Nurburgring is fun, fun to be there and fun to watch... There is currently no GT500 lap time and probably never will be. Cars that are fast at Nurburgring usually are not as fast worldwide or.. they have extreme difficulty doing lap 2 because of brake fade, heat soak or tire wear. There are very few cars that are truly track ready and I am sorry to say that the GT500 or the ZL1 is not in that category... Why build a car tuned to just one track, and before you assume that the Boss 302 was tuned on Laguna only, you would be wrong. The Boss was tuned during the 2010 Grand Am season my Multimatic on every US track on that circuit during race conditions.

0-60 and 1/4 mile traction is being looked at and I am betting that this new car will throw up numbers better than the aftermarket GT350 in that department. As far as a single lap goes (all the supercharger is really good for), the new SVT is mainly focused on distancing itself from its little brother and stepping closer towards something much faster...

Beefier Wheel/Tire package, Magna Ride 3.0 and Performance traction managment.

That is a huge advantage and since the GT500 is on a solid rear axle it should be hoping around the track where the ZL1 won't right? That would be wrong, there are certain parts of Nurburgring that will throw a car up and sideways, usually chirping the tires.. One part in question would be the mini carousel right before the 3km straight that passes Tiergarten. The red test mule GT500 and the ZR1's record laps (both of them) showed both cars hop the concrete and chirp the tires. This is pretty much the best thing that can happen at that part of the track... The ZL1 bounced over the concrete, understeered and headed off its line and almost off the track. Thank god it had thicker tires, Magna ride and IRS...

[truth411]

Originally Posted by thePill

There seems to be a lot of confusion between the GT500's traction during acceleration and it's traction on a road course. There has never been issues with the SVT cars ability to turn, in fact, the 2011 car was very fast at every US track. When you figure in the tight turns of some of America's most difficult tracks, weight becomes a primary issue. For instance, the CTS-V is usually always faster stock to 60mph and in the 1/4 mile. However, the CTS-V was beaten by the '11 GT500 at every single comparison on US tracks. The differences between the 2010 and 2011 were small, 102lbs lighter, 10hp more and a tuned SVT package had the '11 going 6-10 seconds faster than the '10. The GT500's standing VIR time is almost as fast as the Z06 and the GTR, so I would say that traction isn't an issue... if they were to add more brakes, suspension and tire to a 600+hp GT500, I am afraid that reality will be far from Nurburgring...b

Nurburgring is fun, fun to be there and fun to watch... There is currently no GT500 lap time and probably never will be. Cars that are fast at Nurburgring usually are not as fast worldwide or.. they have extreme difficulty doing lap 2 because of brake fade, heat soak or tire wear. There are very few cars that are truly track ready and I am sorry to say that the GT500 or the ZL1 is not in that category... Why build a car tuned to just one track, and before you assume that the Boss 302 was tuned on Laguna only, you would be wrong. The Boss was tuned during the 2010 Grand Am season my Multimatic on every US track on that circuit during race conditions.

0-60 and 1/4 mile traction is being looked at and I am betting that this new car will throw up numbers better than the aftermarket GT350 in that department. As far as a single lap goes (all the supercharger is really good for), the new SVT is mainly focused on distancing itself from its little brother and stepping closer towards something much faster...

That is a huge advantage and since the GT500 is on a solid rear axle it should be hoping around the track where the ZL1 won't right? That would be wrong, there are certain parts of Nurburgring that will throw a car up and sideways, usually chirping the tires.. One part in question would be the mini carousel right before the 3km straight that passes Tiergarten. The red test mule GT500 and the ZR1's record laps (both of them) showed both cars hop the concrete and chirp the tires. This is pretty much the best thing that can happen at that part of the track... The ZL1 bounced over the concrete, understeered and headed off its line and almost off the track. Thank god it had thicker tires, Magna ride and IRS...

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by truth411

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the ZL1 won't be faster than the 2011/2012 GT500; I believe that is a given. We'll all have to wait until both cars hit the streets/tracks before a true comparison can be made and, even then, I doubt there will be a clear winner.

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by truth411

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

Pill gave an awesome explanation that should have left you with improved knowledge regarding suspension, track, etc. etc. This thread is pertaining to the 5.8 going into the new GT500 and you are making absolute statements regarding the ZL1 vs the upcoming GT500 of which 99% of has not been made known. The road course track prowess of the current GT500 with the SVT package is already very very good..and we have yet to see how the ZL1 tops it and it probably will. We don't know.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

I am always septic and I know that the 2011's VIR run wasn't stock. That GT500 had a 5 point harness holding the driver in his seat the entire lap. The lightning lap was performed without any safety harness.. it was stock, even down to the seat belts. Add in the 5 point harness and a full roll cage and I bet we can trim some time from our lap.. especially after 30 laps of practice.

You see my point? I think somebody bought some PR, I'm just not sure if it was Ford selling it

Edit: In road racing, driver comfort is important. I believe it was C&D that stated the need for more seat grip is always needed to generate great times. Although their run was slower than Ford's (137mph vs. 142mph) the car still handles very very well and was balanced (not just fore and aft). If we start adding in things like; lightweight racing seats, 5 point harnesses and more chassis support then we start adding not only driver comforts but chassis comforts as well. A single cross bar can add significant improvements to foot pounds per degree resistance.

A roll cage increases the amount of rigidity the chassis has. Whenever a car goes through a turn at high speeds (Nurburgring), it generates massive lateral gravitational forces. These G Forces generate high amounts of stress in the vehicles chassis. This causes chassis flex, in which a roll cage can reduce, limit and sometimes stop all together.

Chassis flex can have devastating effects on your vehicles suspension and handling. Chassis flex can cause the suspension’s geometry to change. Chassis flex can alter camber degree, toe and caster. With a roll cage installed and depending on how complex it is, a roll cage can make chassis flex almost nonexistent. This means that while a car appears to be fast on a track that has high speed turns, once the additional structure is removed from the car, the chassis will become unpredictable and handling will become much worse. Looking at both the GT500s and ZL1s roll cage systems, it is safe to assume that the structures could absorb 10,000 to 30,000 foot pounds of force per degree due to the aggressive cage system layout (that is between 100 and 250%). That would mean that even under 1.5gs at 100+mph, the tires would still remain in contact with the road... something 99.9% of production automobiles cannot vouch for... The car would remain flat... The extra 100lbs would do little to offset the vehicle now that the car was solid and in motion, from a stop... weight would hurt it... at 100+mph, it would attribute to less than a 1% increase in G forces during turning (Depending on speed).

And who knows what else is going on in the car... this was in fact a tuning run if I remember what GM's North American president said... Now, every run in a Camaro from now on has to be done with a full cage, the next run will be with Cup tires I'm sure... Anyone who thinks that additional support from a 12-16 point roll cage "helps a little" and the fact that a strut tower brace "is a very ridged bar that obviously get us.. you know, an incredibly precise track performance" ~ Mark L. Ruess (and it does) isn't very smart...

The chassis estimates are from NASCAR and are no way accurate because I do not know the specs on the cage but with an aggressive cage system (see ZL1), I am willing to bet that resistances are increased by at least 100% over nominal. I will say this again, reality is far from Nurburgring... a place where nobody can challenge your times and some people are eating this PR with a spoon

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by truth411

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

If the ZL1 isn't faster than the current GT500 it is an epic fail and I don't think anyone expects that. The ZL1 will absolutely be faster than the current 2012 GT500, but that's not really the car it's going to be competing against. The next gen gt500 with the 5.8 and whatever other revisions will be the ZL1's direct competitor and there is far too little info about it thus far to make any kind of judgment about which car will be faster on track or in a straight line.

[BigDan]

Any word about the possibility of 5.8L getting the 2.3L TVS?

If it get's the 2.3L TVS, I'm most likely going to trade up because that will be one dominant engine package considering the 5.0L is running easy 10's with that charger on top of a stock 5.0L.

A lot of other vehicles in the Ford lineup have dual clutch automatics and one can only hope that they develop one to sit behind this new 5.8L as an option. That would truly make it a killer on and off the track. Heck they might as well do an electronic diff just like they did in the new GC SRT-8 and F-430's which could propel it to 60 in under 3.5 seconds with launch control if they engineer it correctly.

I'm hoping I like the updated styling of the new 2013 model, people who have seen it have reported its a love it or hate it sort of look. I've never been a Mustang guy until I saw the 2010 GT500 and didn't want to buy one until I heard of all the upgrades for 2011 so I just might keep mine if the 2013 update look's like crap.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by BigDan

Any word about the possibility of 5.8L getting the 2.3L TVS?

If it get's the 2.3L TVS, I'm most likely going to trade up because that will be one dominant engine package considering the 5.0L is running easy 10's with that charger on top of a stock 5.0L.

A lot of other vehicles in the Ford lineup have dual clutch automatics and one can only hope that they develop one to sit behind this new 5.8L as an option. That would truly make it a killer on and off the track. Heck they might as well do an electronic diff just like they did in the new GC SRT-8 and F-430's which could propel it to 60 in under 3.5 seconds with launch control if they engineer it correctly.

I'm hoping I like the updated styling of the new 2013 model, people who have seen it have reported its a love it or hate it sort of look. I've never been a Mustang guy until I saw the 2010 GT500 and didn't want to buy one until I heard of all the upgrades for 2011 so I just might keep mine if the 2013 update look's like crap.

As soon as I can get some internal dimensions and specs, I will throw it together and put it up. We will probably have to wait until next month though... Everything I have heard points to the 2.3 TVS but not enough for me to say for sure. Before you trade, look carefully at the internal quality and compare it to what you already have. There is a possibility that the 5.4 will be superior to the new engine as far a durability is concerned. The new engine isn't going to be cheap and since the 5.4 is already really expensive.. some internal parts skimping is possible to keep the overall cost down. However, if it is in fact a 2.3 TVS, I would expect internal strength to be just as good if not better than the 5.4... even though an increased displacement relieves a lot of stress, I suspect they aim to out do the 5.4...

Another thing to think about is the 5.4's parts are going to get a lot cheaper after the 5.8 is released. Unless Ford continues the 5.4 for catalog sales only (possible), I would expect the engine price to drop along with the parts themselves. If the engine remains in the catalog, the engine will probably stay at the current price point and only see the parts being reduced for clearances and such (see old 302, 4.6, Cammer 5.0). It is a big decision and I can honestly tell you that I love the 2010-2012 Mustang looks the best... Is this new Cobra going to be $60k to start? then it might not be worth it... If it starts at $50k then put your stock wheels back on and trade up once you get the details on the internals.

Also, the 2013 GT500 could very well have large rear disc brakes.. it might be difficult to use 15" wheels for drag racing with brakes of that size (size unconfirmed but look to be over 13") and the front brakes look larger too (could be 15"). Something to look into if you intend on drag racing and may have to swap out the big brake kit or, get new wheels with offsets.

I had heard a while ago that the "Drag pack" might make a comeback but never did any follow up. (pray for a Drag Pack) Anyway, check out the new Steeda functional race wing, I think it would look great on your GT500.

Edit: Not trying to cause you any more moral conflict Dan but....


This is a place holder pic from the LA Auto Show debut website for new cars Dun dun daaaaaa!!! Per request from Ford's Jim Farley, all SVT Mustang's will come equipped with baseball bats (I made that up... sorry Jim)

[assasinator]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Jesus, I'm going to need a bigger turbo to keep up with Camaro AND Mustang now

you are going to need more cubic inches.

[assasinator]

Originally Posted by Txmxracer

1) I also like thePill's posts because they are informative and grammatically correct.
2) I also believe the next GT500 will beat out the ZL1; that is the reason why they are making the car to begin with. Then the ZL1 will have some revisions and become top dog again, and then the Mustang, and so on. The only thing that could prohibit the Camaro's growth is the Corvette. Personally, I think the Corvette needs to become a more exclusive super car. I am a little radical in my thinking but make the Z06 the slowest and cheapest Vette there is, and build up from there. Chevy could insert a cheaper yet sporty 2-seater into their line up with a car similar to the Sky and the Solstice for people in that market. Then the Camaro won't have any toes that they could possibly step on.

the only way i see that happening is a radical reinvention of the vette formula.

mid engine, or at least exotic looks. it would mean breaking from tradition. i doubt that can happen. the vette can be faster and more powerful than EVERYTHING, and its still just a vette. use the 1970 chaparral as a baseline.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by truth411

I think your being fooled by fords P.R. I always look at test that uses the SAME driver on the SAME day, thus the difference in the car performance is easier to judge rather than driving skill. In the 2011 lighting lap the 2011 GT500 is only .2 sec faster than a CTS-V Coupe. There no question that the ZL1 will be quicker, just have to wait and see I suppose.

But you're equally fooled by GM's PR because the ZL1 comes out one year later so of course will be faster than the CTS-V/GT500. However the 2013 GT500 comes out one year after the ZL1 and thus will be faster, and so on and so forth.