[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by Doc

That looks really good! I like it! If that little beauty were sitting on a showroom floor with some hot, vibrant colors and a price tag of $19,950....I would buy that instead of a Mazda or anything else. Okay now I'm going to have to draw a front for it lol. Good job!

Thank you, but I started out with a great design with everything I look for in a car

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by laborsmith

Engine in the rear over the drive wheels? (I mean, you have Corvair on the fender.) Make it on a 108" WB, 184" long by 70" wide and I would be seriously tempted.

Laborsmith

I love the name Corvair and design of the 60s chevrolets. If Docs design was rear engine it probably would have to be a 2 seater, because I don't think there would be enough room for a back seat although it would be cool if it did.

[Sledgehammer70]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

I know exactly what you are saying in that the content and design in these vehicles is perfect for what you are talking about. You do not need 30 grand for a nice interior these days because the bar keeps being raised so even a basic interior is pretty dang nice as things filter down the ladder.

Here is just some tinkering with your design for fun....

It's like an ugly acura....

[laborsmith]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70

It's like an ugly acura....

Not like any Acura I have ever seen, ugly or not.

Laborsmith

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Doc

Of course I don't mind; feel free to modify and post any of your ideas.



I realize they've tried many things and in a lot of those cases I think the basic idea was sound, but in pretty much every case what didn't work was the looks. I mean look at the Cobalt:

Attachment 743467
Attachment 743468

It just looks bland and boring. And then there's the HHR which I actually think was a good idea and could have done well if the looks were there but instead of a beautiful car they delivered this:

Attachment 743469

Again it has that bland, all-the-edges-and-corners removed "safe" look; like being put in a padded cell so you can't harm yourself. This is an issue I think they've had for years with good ideas that fail because of tepid, bland, un-exciting designs. You would think that by now they would have figured out that for the vast majority of buyers looks are at least 75% of their decision-making process. They need sharp, bold (not hokey or gimmicky) designs and interiors.

Look at what Mazda is delivering for an interior on the new 2016 Mazda 6 of which the sport model is under $24k:
Attachment 743471
Attachment 743472
That's a nice, clean, classy looking interior.

So it seems like based on everything we've discussed so far the critical element at GM that needs to change is style and design. Either the design teams are not delivering anything exciting for management to choose from, or they are and management is dumbing down the designs. Something is broken in the design/style part of the process and unless that gets fixed the sales are going to reflect the looks; tepid and unexciting.

That puts things in a different perspective; they know they need to do something different, they want to do something different, but aren't aware of why so much of what they've tried has failed. Fear of taking a risk is dumbing down the designs which is what actually causes the lack of success. And that's a problem. Without being able to communicate with the decision makers nothing we propose here would have a chance of going anywhere. Which is sad because I want GM to hit the jackpot and be a winner here but there's nothing we can do if they aren't willing to "think different". They need a new vision; one that's strong, bold and exciting... and it has to be for real, not just a marketing slogan.

Great discussion so far...I just hope we can arrive at something that could help GM.

Not sure what 3rd world Chevy that is.

Here is the Cobalt SS that held the 'ring lap record for FWD cars.

And it was $23,000 ................................... in 2008

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Not sure what 3rd world Chevy that is.

Here is the Cobalt SS that held the 'ring lap record for FWD cars.

And it was $23,000 ................................... in 2008

It was a great performance for the money car, but GM reliability and quality scores were still low at the time (or at least perceived to be low) and the interior was sub par compared to it's competition. I almost bought one but ended up with my Wolfsburg instead because it was $1k cheaper and was a much nicer car on the inside.

[ssrs396]

I lowered this version and widened the rear track.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

It was a great performance for the money car, but GM reliability and quality scores were still low at the time (or at least perceived to be low) and the interior was sub par compared to it's competition. I almost bought one but ended up with my Wolfsburg instead because it was $1k cheaper and was a much nicer car on the inside.

With a nice interior this would have been a really great car.............but alas it was not.

[DenverTaco07]

I'm hearing that SUV and Trucks are where it's at right now, putting money into anything else is anti-trend. Don't know how true that is, but may add to the lack of a business case as Number 3 has stated.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by laborsmith

Engine in the rear over the drive wheels? (I mean, you have Corvair on the fender.) Make it on a 108" WB, 184" long by 70" wide and I would be seriously tempted.

Laborsmith

For this design it has to be a front-engine layout. If the engine is in the back the cabin has to be moved forward so you don't lose the rear seats, but then it doesn't look much like a pony car anymore.

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70

It's like an ugly acura....

bwaAAHAAHAAaaaa that's a good one! "Sludgehammer70 ladies and gentlemen... he'll be here all week!"

Originally Posted by ssrs396

I lowered this version and widened the rear track.

That's the kind of thing I think should be left to the owner after they buy it. Lowering and modding is part of the fun of ownership, and this has to be family-friendly like the original pony cars. They need to be able to go over rumble strips and negotiate steep driveways without any clearance issues.

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

I'm hearing that SUV and Trucks are where it's at right now, putting money into anything else is anti-trend. Don't know how true that is, but may add to the lack of a business case as Number 3 has stated.

Well trucks have always been popular; nothing new there. SUV's are great (I have one) but it is a utility vehicle; not the same as a pony car in any way.


Okay here's a rough idea of what the front might look like. I just eyeballed it and figured it out as I went so it's not exactly accurate but close enough to get the idea.

[ssrs2lt]

It seems like with the move to smaller cars your idea is a valid one. I don't think gm has the small car perfect line up. I get what number 3 is saying, so it should be placed on a current frame. There's one one other way, gm merges with fiat..lol..I certainly hope gm - chevy is looking to create and not feeling satisfied..

[KarFan]

New entry level Camaro needed... Maybe..
GM won't do it. Camaro is premium now. Cheap Chevy performance comes with fuel economy now and that means Cruze or even new Malibu.. CAFE says so

Camaro team will defend our position by saying that Camaro offers class leading performance with class targeted fuel economy for the segment at comparable prices.

V8's are at a premium now and will increase unless legislation changes.

[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by Doc

I realize they've tried many things and in a lot of those cases I think the basic idea was sound, but in pretty much every case what didn't work was the looks. I mean look at the Cobalt:

Attachment 743467
Attachment 743468

It just looks bland and boring. And then there's the HHR which I actually think was a good idea and could have done well if the looks were there but instead of a beautiful car they delivered this:

Attachment 743469

Again it has that bland, all-the-edges-and-corners removed "safe" look; like being put in a padded cell so you can't harm yourself. This is an issue I think they've had for years with good ideas that fail because of tepid, bland, un-exciting designs. You would think that by now they would have figured out that for the vast majority of buyers looks are at least 75% of their decision-making process. They need sharp, bold (not hokey or gimmicky) designs and interiors.

Look at what Mazda is delivering for an interior on the new 2016 Mazda 6 of which the sport model is under $24k:
Attachment 743471
Attachment 743472
That's a nice, clean, classy looking interior.

So it seems like based on everything we've discussed so far the critical element at GM that needs to change is style and design. Either the design teams are not delivering anything exciting for management to choose from, or they are and management is dumbing down the designs. Something is broken in the design/style part of the process and unless that gets fixed the sales are going to reflect the looks; tepid and unexciting.

That puts things in a different perspective; they know they need to do something different, they want to do something different, but aren't aware of why so much of what they've tried has failed. Fear of taking a risk is dumbing down the designs which is what actually causes the lack of success. And that's a problem. Without being able to communicate with the decision makers nothing we propose here would have a chance of going anywhere. Which is sad because I want GM to hit the jackpot and be a winner here but there's nothing we can do if they aren't willing to "think different". They need a new vision; one that's strong, bold and exciting... and it has to be for real, not just a marketing slogan.

Great discussion so far...I just hope we can arrive at something that could help GM.

hahaha that is absolutely NOT a cobalt! Looks are obviously subjective but it really is a clean looking design. Here is an SS turbo, without the huge rear spoiler:



You could even get the GM turbo upgrade kit for something like $500 and retain the factory warranty, while getting near 300 hp and over 300 lb / ft of torque.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Doc

Hah I hadn't heard that one but I can see something like that happening.



I've been talking about a RWD pony car from the start; the reason why FWD models keep being mentioned is because what I'm talking about doesn't exist right now so there's nothing to compare it to. If our only option is a FWD layout then that's a waste of time to design another FWD car when there's already a boatload of them from every major company.

Fr

You keep saying that, yet the car you are describing is the BRZ and FRS. Entry level performance cars, smaller than the current pony cars. And they are priced in the mid 20s. Those two cars would be the direct comparison for your new pony car segment. I don't know why you keep ignoring that these two cars exist. Yes I know you said distinct American styling, but the segment you say doesn't exists, exists and those cars are not selling well by any means. YTD They have only sold 3800 BRZ and 7700 FR-S combined that is an average of 1277 cars a month


"there are so many buyers here in the U.S. (millions) that a successful model could easily sell 100k+"

That would outsell the camaro, and IMO definitely take sales away from it.

As Doc has mentioned many times, the closest thing GM has to a fun entry car now is the Sonic RS, which starts at 21K. I just can't see how this brand new car, with a better interior could come in less than that.

I just do not see how it could be done, to the point where it wouldn't be right there in price with the Camaro