[truth411]

Originally Posted by thePill

Thanks man, I appreciate that... Now, I will tell you what I dug up today on this 5.8. I hear, but in no way confirmed that the new 5.8 will be upgraded from the 5.4 in the same fashion that the 5.0 was upgraded from the 4.6. That means that in order to save money, Ford will be using most of the 5.4s tooling in order to make pretty much a brand new engine (Coyote Long Stroke possibly). When the 5.0 was conceived, it used most of the 4.6s existing tooling, Ford eliminated unneeded mass with block webbing and used what they could from the 4.6... ended up being very little. This is why the 5.0 and 4.6 are almost exactly the same weight even though the TiVCT unit was added, stronger block but physically smaller dimensions.

SVT, and I have all the reason to believe this, understands that horsepower and torque is not the only answer in this battle. I have no word on suspension systems and tires yet but the cheapest, most feasible option would be to use the same Ford Racing parts that the GT350 used. This Ford Racing equipped GT350 goes 0-60 in 3.7, 1/4 mile in 12 flat at 121, 1.05g and only used Goodyear 255fr/285rr 19"s, produced 524hp/490tq and weighed 3816lbs. What made the car handle better/better traction, it isn't underrated, it dyno'd at 473hp... It isn't the Goodyears... Definitely not the weight. It was a combination of things however, the aggressive suspension system helped dramatically. The twins were seen using 19" wheels on all four corners and the only way you would want to run a smaller diameter wheel is because you need the clearance for some extra width and, 19 inch tires of similar profiles will spin faster using the same 3.73s.. and who knows, maybe this new 5.8 will use a beefy MT82 to save some money and really get those tires turning... SVT knows they need more traction, simply adding suspension would be enough, adding more tire and perhaps some Corsa's would really be something....

It is funny you bring up the conflict between the Corvette and the Camaro. The top dog ZR1 produces 638hp... A great strategy for Ford would be to bump their horsepower right up next to the ZR1 and challenge the Camaro to do the same. Of course GM would have nothing of this and surely bump the Vette eventually, but now they are working on two cars just because of the SVT Mustang, one is running from it, the other is chasing it... Anyone I see comparing a Mustang to a Corvette is usually laughed at by both sides and Ford wants nothing to do with the Corvette as far as the Mustang is concerned. This does put Chevrolet in a position. The Camaro wants to beat the Mustang but has to do so without beating the Corvette, it is actually quite brilliant.

Edit: As for the ZL1, I am sure Chevrolet will make improvements in 2013 and that car will probably put the 2012 ZL1 to shame. Regarding the ZL1s Nurburgring time, how about we eliminate the full roll cage and run the car again.. Unless Chevrolet plans to sell the car with the cage in it, I wouldn't have released the lap time until the car was without one. Imagine the rigidity that a simple strut tower brace or sub frame connectors add, then imagine tying the entire interior together with a roll cage. Weight would be increased, interior has to be stripped.. but if you really think about it, a roll cage increases rigidity by 100%, and if the figure could go beyond that, I am sure it would. The 2011 Mustang increased it chassis rigidity buy like 3-4% buy using some suspension tricks and cross bar, the Camaro convertible also had integrated structure reinforcement as all convertibles do. If you were do remove that structure, the car would not be running a mid 7 minute lap and according to the SCCA and NASA the extra weight gained by a cage is completely offset by the increased handling that a cage provides. How many Ring runs were done with cars that used cages? It is a simple trick for simple minds... and Ford is doing this too however, they certainly won't go public with an "official" lap time on a pre-production car with a roll cage. To put it simply, these cars will not replicate these times without the added structure. It is a great testing tool and provides protection for the driver but if the GT500 and ZL1 is already heavy cars to begin with, and other cars run faster laps without a cage... the only logical explanation is that the car(s) lacked the support and needed it. What is the difference between a Boss 302 LS and a Boss 302R? about 150lbs and a full roll cage and the Boss 302R puts about 6-7 seconds on the LS at a small track (3 minute laps), over 8 minutes, this could be 15-17 seconds...

Dude, alot of manufactuers lap times from various companys put in a Roll cage and other equipment for safety percautions, other than that its all stock. Not sure if you knew that, if so it shows incredible bias, you might aswell take away half the cars on the nurburghring list if that is the case.

Edit: Also the Camaro is already more ridged than the Mustang.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

It absolutely was not when the GT was still in production. Where do you get that idea? Ford doesn't have competitors for most of the cars you listed. The Mustang chassis has plenty of room for improvement. Making the assumption that Ford just doesn't have the tech to keep up is a huge stretch. The GT-R licensed plasma wire arc from Ford which was developed and used for just one model in Ford's lineup. Like I said, look back at the 2003 cobra and what it was doing to GM's lineup, even the corvettes. Look at what they did with the 5.0 and Boss on a solid rear axle. If Ford comes out of the gates swinging you better believe they will be right on par with the zl1. If tech were the end-all of automotive performance, the GT-R would dominate every car on the road, but it hardly does. SVT goes overboard and swings for the fences. ZL1 is very, very quick and there's no reason to believe Ford won't come out with a very, very good competitor. Either way, I need a lot more mods for these cars

On a road course?? Hmmmm I admit it is my personal experiance that I made my conclusion from what I have seen First Hand. The C6 Z06 was about 400lbs+ lighter than a GT, Granted the C6 Z06 has evolved over the years to be even quicker. Also I did not say ford can't make good perfomance cars, its just that GM has the tech and experiance to make better ones lol.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

Like Truth 411 said GM>Ford when it comes to performance cars. Theres a reason everytime you watch Pinks on SPEED and when you go to car shows and drag races Mustangs have a Chevy engine in them-hint its not for giggles and laughs.

Well... I'm speaking in General, Not every single case. GM don't have a Boss Competitor... I want a Z28!!! lol

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

Yeah the pushrod is an old engine design but it does get the job done still. Can't wait to see GM's next generation of engines once the C7 is out... 5.5 liter anyone?

I keep hearing this and its bogus... OHC IS OLDER THAN OHV!!!! When GM introduce The Gen V V8 OHV I bet $500 that in 10 years DOHC V8s will be obsolete.

Anywho Back on topic.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by truth411

I keep hearing this and its bogus... OHC IS OLDER THAN OHV!!!! When GM introduce The Gen V V8 OHV I bet $500 that in 10 years DOHC V8s will be obsolete.

Anywho Back on topic.

??? I thought the Gen V were supposed to be DOHC per the UAW/GM documents a few years ago. As for DOHC being obsolete, no chance. Too many advantages in every configuration, especially smaller, lower displacement engines.

[tooslow]

It doesn't matter how many times various people in the industry, including Fbodfather, state that large displacement, ohv v8 engines will go the way of the do-do due to cafe requirements, they continue to think it will be business as usual in the performance arena. Not the case.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Yep, it does, no less than the solid rear axle in the Mustang, wouldn't you agree?

Yeah the Mustangs solid rear axle has really surprised me with how good it has been and what Ford has been able to do with it. It will be interesting to see what they do when they change over to idependent rear suspension for the 6th Gen Mustang in 2014.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by truth411

Well... I'm speaking in General, Not every single case. GM don't have a Boss Competitor... I want a Z28!!! lol

Yeah me too I would LOVE to see a new Z28 Camaro! I would hope that its not totally out of the price range for most people like the ZL1 is. Should be somewhere in between the SS and ZL1. It seems like the new 6th Gen Mustang is going to come out the end of 2013 as a 2014 from what I am reading and I have seen that the new 6th Gen Camaro is going to come out the following year at the end of 2014 as a 2015 model. I think that Chevrolet should bring the Z28 back as a new Camaro on the lighter 6th gen chassis. I'm sure the 6th Gen will already look great anyway and will sell on looks and performance alone but think about what a new Z28 being added would do at the launch of the 6th Gen Camaro that would be a BIG blow to the 6th Gen Mustang after only being out on the market for a year and would bring even more sales for the new Camaro.

[klapper]

Originally Posted by thePill

I don't think the 5.4 would cost $50 million to bore out..so, this could the Coyote Long stroke with TiCVT...

The 5.4 really can't be bored out, the bore spacing is too small. The 5.0 would have to have a 4.25" stroke to make a 5.8L. Using the 5.0 rod would give a terrible rod to stroke ratio of <1.4. The wristpin is probably already pretty high in the 5.0 so it might even be worse than that with a longer stroke.

If that's what the 5.8L is based on, it's a pretty compromised design. Maybe the 5.8 is based on the 6.2L? I had thought that engine was too tight a fit in the Mustang.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

Dude, alot of manufactuers lap times from various companys put in a Roll cage and other equipment for safety percautions, other than that its all stock. Not sure if you knew that, if so it shows incredible bias, you might aswell take away half the cars on the nurburghring list if that is the case.

Edit: Also the Camaro is already more ridged than the Mustang.

It is true that cages are being used more now since Bellof past away (god rest his soul). But the ZL1 and GT500 will be using the CTS-Vs lap time as a benchmark. The CTS-V lapped Nurburgring stock, with NO roll cage. I believe that not only are Ford and Chevy uses these cages for driver protection, they are also using them to distance themselves from other cars. Listen, the C63 Black is no slouch, how is it that these cars are faster around the track then that car? 670hp, 740tq at 4100lbs is ridiculous.

Although, both the GT500 and the ZL1 will probably fall flat on their faces on lap two...

[oldfriend]

Originally Posted by thePill

I don't think the 5.4 would cost $50 million to bore out..so, this could the Coyote Long stroke with TiCVT... Another 50-70lbs off the front if this happens.. Hopefully this is the news they were hiding over here...I look for a new tire announcement, suspension announcement and some other goodies in the coming weeks.

Here comes the Terminator

Then GM will announce the Z28 , and there we go again , hey we asked for it , didn't we .

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by truth411

On a road course?? Hmmmm I admit it is my personal experiance that I made my conclusion from what I have seen First Hand. The C6 Z06 was about 400lbs+ lighter than a GT, Granted the C6 Z06 has evolved over the years to be even quicker. Also I did not say ford can't make good perfomance cars, its just that GM has the tech and experiance to make better ones lol.

The GT puts down a hell of a lot more power than the z06. They routinely put 515-520rwhp down while the z06 typically puts down around 450 which more than negates the 300 lb (3150 vs 3450) weight difference, or that's what z06s were putting down in 2006 at least, I haven't kept up on the changes to the z06. I've driven both on track at mid-ohio and to be perfectly honest I would have probably put down better times in the z06 as it's much easier to drive, but in the hands of a pro I'd put my money on the GT every time. Run the DOT slicks the z06 was running at the 'ring and I bet you'd see faster times in the GT. As for tech and experience to make better ones. . . well, Ford's not exactly a slouch in the racing world. They were deeply involved in Formula 1 for years, have won WRC championships, joint ventures with Cosworth, SVT has built some monsters and they've done very well in all the major GT car circuits. GM doesn't have some secret alien technology that nobody else does. It's not going to come down to who has the best tech on hand, it's going to come down to who executes. Look at the z06. OHV, leaf springs. . . yet it's a monster on track because it's a well-rounded, well executed design, not because it has better tech than the competition.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

??? I thought the Gen V were supposed to be DOHC per the UAW/GM documents a few years ago. As for DOHC being obsolete, no chance. Too many advantages in every configuration, especially smaller, lower displacement engines.

Ahhh remember I said DOHC V8s not 4s or 6s. If the Gen V V8s gets concentric cam tech (as expected) and thus true VVT, D.I. , camshaft higher in the block (thus less valve train weight, as expected). Combined with the advantages inherent with OHV V8s, it could possibly be the best N.A. V8 made for per cost and packaging. In the future we already know GM is working on H.C.C.I. , and I was told that the Gen V new block makes it easier/cheaper for GM to use the designed yet not implemented 3 valve cyclender heads in the future SBC. If over the next 10 years all that tech is incorporated in the SBC, what suppose advantage would a N.A. DOHC V8 have over the OHV? None, infact DOHC would be almost inferior in everyway that matters in the real world.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

Ahhh remember I said DOHC V8s not 4s or 6s. If the Gen V V8s gets concentric cam tech (as expected) and thus true VVT, D.I. , camshaft higher in the block (thus less valve train weight, as expected). Combined with the advantages inherent with OHV V8s, it could possibly be the best N.A. V8 made for per cost and packaging. In the future we already know GM is working on H.C.C.I. , and I was told that the Gen V new block makes it easier/cheaper for GM to use the designed yet not implemented 3 valve cyclender heads in the future SBC. If over the next 10 years all that tech is incorporated in the SBC, what suppose advantage would a N.A. DOHC V8 have over the OHV? None, infact DOHC would be almost inferior in everyway that matters in the real world.

There are mnay things wrong with a pushrod engine, the main one being the pushrods themselves. Pushrods rob major amounts of horsepower due to design and add a lot of stress on a single cam. With an OHC, it allows the more delicate camshaft to make direct contact with the rocker arms. This eliminates valve float at high RPMs and allows the engine to spin more freely. Most race OHVs can spin up to 10,000rpm, a race OHC can spin up to 20,000rpm. I understand that a 3 valve OHV can be done, but you are adding more pushrods in the engine and a single pushrod can be responsible for 2-8 horsepower per rod (RPM depending) so naturally, a larger displacement is always needed.

Another big issue with a 2 valve, and in most cases all valve configurations (but more so in a small head OHV) is valve shrouding. This is when your only intake/exhaust valve is in close proximity to the chamber wall. This restricts airflow from sometimes 50% of the valve opening, on an OHC engine, heads are naturally larger so chambers can be designed around this problem and... there are additional valves to aid airflow. DOHC cams are hollow and easy to swap out compared to the old cam in block design. With a timing suppression tool, you can literally change 4 cams in a 1/4 of the time it takes to swap out a OHV cam. There are a lot of additional measures you have to take to get a cam out of the block....

If GM would have stuck with the Northstar, it would have been a fantastic engine and for some reason, Team Corvette took offense to the LT5 since it was built overseas. Besides, if OHVs were really that good, they would have stuck with them across the board...