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Old 03-06-2014, 12:01 PM   #976
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Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
Understand, that I'm not disagreeing with your economic assessment of the ramifications of CAFE.

I just don't like it.

I won't buy a 4 banger, and if they price the V8 like the Z-28 or ZL1 I will not buy GM. ( all my POV's have been GM except the Mercedes I had while stationed in Germany in the eighties!)
Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:07 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
Agree.

There's absolutely no reason to think that if the V8's in GM products are getting expensive, that other manufacturers won't be getting expensive as well.

Look at it this way. If Ford still offered a 450+HP V8 mustang for $35K, but for some stupid reason you can't get a V8 Camaro with the same power and performance for under 45 to 50K....which would the vast majority buy? I know you realize this, but what you have to also understand is that GM knows they must stay competitive with other makers, so they are going to offer an alternative at a similar price.

In a nutshell, if because of CAFE, GM can't put a standard N/A V8 into a Camaro at a price normal people can afford, then I don't see how Ford or Dodge will be able to either.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:11 PM   #978
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Well, everyone wants to loose 200lbs in the Camaro. That's one way to do it! Lol
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:23 PM   #979
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Take a good look at the current v8 offerings. All or most of them are (starting) at or near 40k as is. Its very easy to get even the base SS and Mustang GT over 40k in price with a few options.

Its a sign of the changing climate that the v8s will become a very selective and expensive option for those that will desire it in the years ahead.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:33 PM   #980
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I didn't intend to get in a pissing match with Fen, the reading comprehension cracks just rubbed me the wrong way.

On this entire thread we've talked about the capabilities of the 4 cylinder and the Ramifications of CAFE.

Many people have lauded the capabilities of the four cylinder turbo engine as if it's the mightiest, sweetest sounding thing to ever grace an engine bay. I disagree.

Others have said we have no choice CAFE will take V8 engines away -- or at least out of reach. I lament this, and agree to the strong possibility.

Others have said, why worry, they aren't putting a gun to your head and making you buy the 4 banger.

To this I say that Govt regulation that purposely makes V8s go away IS a gun to my head . They will tax and regulate the industry to NUDGE you into buying the cars they want.

Then they will remove your choice to do it at all. ( that's why I can't smoke my cigar anywhere including the store where I buy them!)

They will eventually get around to making all American cars sporty little 4 banger hatchbacks and ultra expensive luxury and sport cars.

Then some politician with a hot button issue will decide that only electric cars should be on the road and that the internal combustion engine should be outlawed for causing global warming or some such.

I think ( call me crazy). That if they change these cars to "sporty turbo 4 hatchbacks" that we will lose what makes them unique. fait accompli.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:41 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
That's exactly what I mean. If my choices in my price range are sporty hatchbacks like Hondas or bland Eco sedans like Toyotas-- and nobody is making the American muscle I want affordable, I might as well buy the Honda!

What I'm saying is don't get rid of what makes American cars great, cause I and I'm sure others don't want a Chevy Camry or a Ford Accord.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:02 PM   #982
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You're acting as if turbo 4s will completely replace V8s. That's not what's happening at all. If turbo 4s are replacing anything, it's the V6 actually.

We still can't get a 4-cylinder to V8 levels of power without a lot of engineering and technology (which costs money). So the V8 is safe for the foreseeable future.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:26 PM   #983
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Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
You're acting as if turbo 4s will completely replace V8s. That's not what's happening at all. If turbo 4s are replacing anything, it's the V6 actually.

We still can't get a 4-cylinder to V8 levels of power without a lot of engineering and technology (which costs money). So the V8 is safe for the foreseeable future.
Maybe you are right Fen, and I hope so my friend but when I think of all the people who claim turbo 4's are getting 300+ HP and 300+ TQ and then I look at my wife's 2010 Mustang GT and realize that it has 315HP and less TQ, I think a smaller Mustang with a 2 liter turbo 4 might get marketed as a GT in the future.

What happens when they they make the CAFE rules do arbitrarily high that nothing but 4 bangers and hybrids can do it?

I think that's what they ( the govt) is after.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:31 PM   #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revychevy View Post
Maybe you are right Fen, and I hope so my friend but when I think of all the people who claim turbo 4's are getting 300+ HP and 300+ TQ and then I look at my wife's 2010 Mustang GT and realize that it has 315HP and less TQ, I think a smaller Mustang with a 2 liter turbo 4 might get marketed as a GT in the future.

What happens when they they make the CAFE rules do arbitrarily high that nothing but 4 bangers and hybrids can do it?

I think that's what they ( the govt) is after.
Ah, but then consider a 2014 Mustang GT is over 400 HP now.

It's just progress. V8s will keep getting more and more powerful and so will smaller engines. 10 years from now, a GT might be hitting 500 HP and doing 30 MPG for all we know.

And hybrids aren't always a bad thing. Case in point:

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Old 03-06-2014, 02:31 PM   #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
Ah, but then consider a 2014 Mustang GT is over 400 HP now.

It's just progress. V8s will keep getting more and more powerful and so will smaller engines. 10 years from now, a GT might be hitting 500 HP and doing 30 MPG for all we know.

And hybrids aren't always a bad thing. Case in point:

I wish there was a LIKE button.
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Old 03-07-2014, 02:15 AM   #986
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...does not matter...gas is bad, oil is bad, coal is bad, off shore drilling is bad, fracking is bad, XL pipeline from CA to US is bad....bad American's using such technology. Thing is we are almost energy independent and the nutjobs trying to keep us from doing it in office need to take a hike. So we take a so called high road while the rest of the developing countries...take China for example, dump the enviornment causing much more global harm than us? Futality, at our expense...
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:04 AM   #987
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No matter how much HP it has a 4cyl will sound like a 4 cyl.... Lame
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Old 03-16-2014, 08:19 AM   #988
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No matter how much HP it has a 4cyl will sound like a 4 cyl.... Lame
Actually there is technology to fix that. It's fake, but I heard a Solstice turbo that was "tuned" electronically to sound like a V8. With this you could make your car sound however you want and never change the exhaust.

But it isn't "genuine" IMO. But it exists.
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:11 PM   #989
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As Carroll Shelby initially called the Mustang a "secretary's car" maybe the 4 cylinder is a good move for satisfying all economies especially when gas prices go up.
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:21 PM   #990
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Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65 View Post
Ah, but then consider a 2014 Mustang GT is over 400 HP now.

It's just progress. V8s will keep getting more and more powerful and so will smaller engines. 10 years from now, a GT might be hitting 500 HP and doing 30 MPG for all we know.

And hybrids aren't always a bad thing. Case in point:

Saw that gorgeous car on Top Gear. The batteries actually complement the big V8, kicking in a times when it's most needed. AMAZING!
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:00 AM   #991
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Why not the turbocharged V6 from the CTS? 420 hp and 0-60 in 4.4? 16/24 mpg?
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Old 03-19-2014, 05:23 PM   #992
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I'd like to see the 6th Gen Max out @ around 3,400lbs .... (just wishing)
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:55 PM   #993
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4 cyl with turbo would be okay....but there's nothing sweeter than listening to that v8 engine
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:34 PM   #994
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
Again you keep saying you won't buy GM if they price them too high. Again I say it's not going to be just GM but ALL manufacturers. So does that mean you just won't buy from GM or not from anyone?
Jumping in here...

Why buy a 4 cylinder sports car though? At that point doesn't a truck, Jeep (or SUV) or entry-level luxury sedan sound better? Or heck, buying a 10 year old car that still has it's original high-HP engine?
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:52 PM   #995
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Jumping in here...

Why buy a 4 cylinder sports car though? At that point doesn't a truck, Jeep (or SUV) or entry-level luxury sedan sound better? Or heck, buying a 10 year old car that still has it's original high-HP engine?
Hmm, well there are plenty if 4 cylinder SPORTS CARS. Cylinder count has nothing to do with a car is considered a sports car or not. Sports Cars can have 4, 6, 8, 10 or even 12 cylinders, and some of each are available today.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:18 PM   #996
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^that right there is funny! no lie waayyy over reaction!
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:54 PM   #997
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Because smaller displacement, forced induction engines with anything less than 8 cylinders are bad for sports cars. Right? Right...?
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:04 PM   #998
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hahaha right again ^..I would kill for one of those!
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:06 PM   #999
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Why not the turbocharged V6 from the CTS? 420 hp and 0-60 in 4.4? 16/24 mpg?
Cuz FE isn't much better than a V8 and it costs and weighs almost as much as a V8. Not a real big advantage. I wish they had just put the LT1 in the V-sport.

But the 2.0T in the ATS is pretty solid. If they can keep the weight decent it will be pretty fun. In a few months we will have reviews of the ATS coupe and that will indicate what we could expect.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:52 PM   #1000
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Cuz FE isn't much better than a V8 and it costs and weighs almost as much as a V8. Not a real big advantage. I wish they had just put the LT1 in the V-sport.

But the 2.0T in the ATS is pretty solid. If they can keep the weight decent it will be pretty fun. In a few months we will have reviews of the ATS coupe and that will indicate what we could expect.
I just wish they'd have "unplugged" the LF3 a bit more and gave it something like 440hp and 460 or more TQ. Maybe they are keeping some power on the table for the future?

The thing will put down more torque to the rear wheels when tuned than it does stock at the crank. Not saying GM can turn it up nearly that high and keep it to their reliability standards...I realize that. Just saying that is a lot of room to grow lol.
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