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Old 05-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #18
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There is no benefit to putting the LF3 in the Camaro.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #19
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There is no benefit to putting the LF3 in the Camaro.
In the global market there is a big benefit to using the LF3. Lower taxes in Europe.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:37 AM   #20
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I believe Car and Driver also mentioned the TT V6 may end up in a new version of the Buick Grand National.
Wondering if that would be based on the Alpha platform as well?
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:29 PM   #21
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I believe Car and Driver also mentioned the TT V6 may end up in a new version of the Buick Grand National.
Wondering if that would be based on the Alpha platform as well?
Based on a few rumors I've heard, I think GM is indeed considering an Alpha Buick or two. If it does happen, I'd bet on a Grand National sharing platform with the 6th gen and the ATS.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:10 PM   #22
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Plus, the snobby import drivers wouldn't want to drive around with pushrods under the hood. If you look at the CTS segment, you see that the top models are all powered by turbo 6 cylinders. Caddy followed the rest of the segment, and blew them away with an excellent engine.
So in other words, it doesn't matter whether the Cadillac engine is better than the Chevy engine or not...what's important is whether it can be marketed with more expensive sounding words or not? Or put another way, luxury car buyers will pay more for not necessarily a better product, but rather for the privilege of paying more just so they can prove that they can pay more?

I'm being facetious and joking around there, but I think there may be at least some small grain of truth in there somewhere. Reason I got a bit of a laugh out of this is Angus MacKenzie basically said the same thing in his editorial on the last page of MT last month (May 2013 issue for anyone who cares to look it up). Your comment immediately made me think of that.

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In the global market there is a big benefit to using the LF3. Lower taxes in Europe.
That statement and the implications behind it was sad for me to read, mostly because I know it is accurate.

Have we really gotten to the point where European tax policy is dictating product engineering and availability here? After fighting a war way back when so we would no longer have to concern ourselves with which direction the European elite decided to fart on any given day, do we once again find ourselves in a position where that affects us? Have we been forced to cede pursing what we want, and instead accept only what an aristocracy an ocean away wants and allows us to have? That the answer may well be "yes" should make us all stop and think.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:18 PM   #23
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So in other words, it doesn't matter whether the Cadillac engine is better than the Chevy engine or not...what's important is whether it can be marketed with more expensive sounding words or not? Or put another way, luxury car buyers will pay more for not necessarily a better product, but rather for the privilege of paying more just so they can prove that they can pay more?

I'm being facetious and joking around there, but I think there may be at least some small grain of truth in there somewhere. Reason I got a bit of a laugh out of this is Angus MacKenzie basically said the same thing in his editorial on the last page of MT last month (May 2013 issue for anyone who cares to look it up). Your comment immediately made me think of that.



That statement and the implications behind it was sad for me to read, mostly because I know it is accurate.

Have we really gotten to the point where European tax policy is dictating product engineering and availability here? After fighting a war way back when so we would no longer have to concern ourselves with which direction the European elite decided to fart on any given day, do we once again find ourselves in a position where that affects us? Have we been forced to cede pursing what, and instead accept only what an aristocracy an ocean away wants and allows us to have? That the answer may well be "yes" should make us all stop and think.
That's EXACTLY what I was going for Angus is great. It is BS that the global market is affecting our market. I can understand why they would do it for economy cars, but keep it away from true American cars.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by fielderLS3 View Post
So in other words, it doesn't matter whether the Cadillac engine is better than the Chevy engine or not...what's important is whether it can be marketed with more expensive sounding words or not? Or put another way, luxury car buyers will pay more for not necessarily a better product, but rather for the privilege of paying more just so they can prove that they can pay more?

I'm being facetious and joking around there, but I think there may be at least some small grain of truth in there somewhere. Reason I got a bit of a laugh out of this is Angus MacKenzie basically said the same thing in his editorial on the last page of MT last month (May 2013 issue for anyone who cares to look it up). Your comment immediately made me think of that.



That statement and the implications behind it was sad for me to read, mostly because I know it is accurate.

Have we really gotten to the point where European tax policy is dictating product engineering and availability here? After fighting a war way back when so we would no longer have to concern ourselves with which direction the European elite decided to fart on any given day, do we once again find ourselves in a position where that affects us? Have we been forced to cede pursing what, and instead accept only what an aristocracy an ocean away wants and allows us to have? That the answer may well be "yes" should make us all stop and think.
Nope.

Like many, I won't believe the LF3 will be in a US Camaro until GM announces it.

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Old 05-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #25
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I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:10 PM   #26
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I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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Aren't you contradicting youself there?
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:46 PM   #27
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I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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I beg to differ but I think based on the estimated LT1 numbers, there's going to be a fairly significant difference between the HP of the LF3 and the 6th gen Camaro LT1. When you consider the slight differences in LS3 output between the Corvette and Camaro now, I'd expect the LT1 in the new Camaro to be rated around 460-465 HP with about 440 TQ. The only real advantage the LF3 should have (over the LT1) is its max torque (430 lb-ft) is available from 3500 RPM. I'd also bet on (if this ever happens) Chevy using a de-tuned LF3 variant that drops the output to something more akin to the L99 (400 HP/410 TQ) if not lower.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:33 PM   #28
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If the TT in the Camaro did for the vehicle the same thing the TT did for the V6 in the F150 (EcoBoost), it would have my attention. I traded a V8 F150 for my current F150 with an EcoBoost in it, and the EcoBoost blows away the V8 I had. People focus too much on horsepower numbers. Torque is what's so much fun to feel in a vehicle. And with the TT, you can feel a ton of torque at very low RPMs, and the curve is held high for much longer. All you need with the TT is a good tune to wake up even more power.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #29
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Aren't you contradicting youself there?
I fail to see how you are seeing a contradiction in what I stated even with the bolding. A naturally aspirated V8 making similar HP as the TT V6 is clearly the better choice if not just for the sound alone.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:10 PM   #30
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You said they had similar power, and in the very next sentence you said the Camaro needs the power of a V8. You don't see that as a contradiction?

Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.

Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:22 PM   #31
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You said they had similar power, and in the very next sentence you said the Camaro needs the power of a V8. You don't see that as a contradiction?

Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.

Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.
Pretty clever coffee story I must admit. It's cute. I have owned a vehicle in the past that had a turbo so I am quite aware of their capabilities. But we aren't talking about aftermarket mods here just factory setup. If I wanted to beat every Joe Shmoe on the road it'd be a V8 forcefed monster not a TT'd V6.

And I was simply stating that the sound factor is just a small reason why a V8 suits a Camaro better or any muscle car for that matter. I've heard plenty of turbocharged V6 Camaros and the sound is like a lawnmower on roids. Not desirable whatsoever.

If I didn't know better I would say you were a V6 owner? Bottom line, GM will never produce a Camaro with that setup, period.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:56 AM   #32
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Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or "incorrect."

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:00 AM   #33
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Oooh, I wanna play!

Non Sequitur: (Latin for It does not follow) is a conversational and literary device, often used for comedic purposes. It is something said that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what preceded it, seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.

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Old 05-05-2013, 08:22 AM   #34
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Yea what he said. Its to close to V8 power so it would reduce sales. That said i think it would be cool to see a factory TT V6 under the hood. Maybe they can offer the TT V6 and up the V8 power to 500+ HP maybe LS7 standard. Even though the V6 in mine is awsome we cant have a Camaro lineup without a V8 trying to escape out of the hood.
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