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Old 05-04-2013, 06:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DRKnightSS1 View Post
I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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Aren't you contradicting youself there?
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:46 PM   #27
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I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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I beg to differ but I think based on the estimated LT1 numbers, there's going to be a fairly significant difference between the HP of the LF3 and the 6th gen Camaro LT1. When you consider the slight differences in LS3 output between the Corvette and Camaro now, I'd expect the LT1 in the new Camaro to be rated around 460-465 HP with about 440 TQ. The only real advantage the LF3 should have (over the LT1) is its max torque (430 lb-ft) is available from 3500 RPM. I'd also bet on (if this ever happens) Chevy using a de-tuned LF3 variant that drops the output to something more akin to the L99 (400 HP/410 TQ) if not lower.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:33 PM   #28
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If the TT in the Camaro did for the vehicle the same thing the TT did for the V6 in the F150 (EcoBoost), it would have my attention. I traded a V8 F150 for my current F150 with an EcoBoost in it, and the EcoBoost blows away the V8 I had. People focus too much on horsepower numbers. Torque is what's so much fun to feel in a vehicle. And with the TT, you can feel a ton of torque at very low RPMs, and the curve is held high for much longer. All you need with the TT is a good tune to wake up even more power.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #29
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Aren't you contradicting youself there?
I fail to see how you are seeing a contradiction in what I stated even with the bolding. A naturally aspirated V8 making similar HP as the TT V6 is clearly the better choice if not just for the sound alone.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:10 PM   #30
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You said they had similar power, and in the very next sentence you said the Camaro needs the power of a V8. You don't see that as a contradiction?

Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.

Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:22 PM   #31
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You said they had similar power, and in the very next sentence you said the Camaro needs the power of a V8. You don't see that as a contradiction?

Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.

Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.
Pretty clever coffee story I must admit. It's cute. I have owned a vehicle in the past that had a turbo so I am quite aware of their capabilities. But we aren't talking about aftermarket mods here just factory setup. If I wanted to beat every Joe Shmoe on the road it'd be a V8 forcefed monster not a TT'd V6.

And I was simply stating that the sound factor is just a small reason why a V8 suits a Camaro better or any muscle car for that matter. I've heard plenty of turbocharged V6 Camaros and the sound is like a lawnmower on roids. Not desirable whatsoever.

If I didn't know better I would say you were a V6 owner? Bottom line, GM will never produce a Camaro with that setup, period.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:56 AM   #32
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Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or "incorrect."

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:00 AM   #33
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Oooh, I wanna play!

Non Sequitur: (Latin for It does not follow) is a conversational and literary device, often used for comedic purposes. It is something said that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what preceded it, seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.

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Old 05-05-2013, 08:22 AM   #34
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Yea what he said. Its to close to V8 power so it would reduce sales. That said i think it would be cool to see a factory TT V6 under the hood. Maybe they can offer the TT V6 and up the V8 power to 500+ HP maybe LS7 standard. Even though the V6 in mine is awsome we cant have a Camaro lineup without a V8 trying to escape out of the hood.
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:23 AM   #35
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It might, but thats only 420hp.....you can get a turbo or SC and have 500 plus right now.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:06 PM   #36
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If the TT in the Camaro did for the vehicle the same thing the TT did for the V6 in the F150 (EcoBoost), it would have my attention. I traded a V8 F150 for my current F150 with an EcoBoost in it, and the EcoBoost blows away the V8 I had. People focus too much on horsepower numbers. Torque is what's so much fun to feel in a vehicle. And with the TT, you can feel a ton of torque at very low RPMs, and the curve is held high for much longer. All you need with the TT is a good tune to wake up even more power.
Which V8? Are you comparing the older 4.6L or 5.4L 2 or 3 valve V8s to the Eco-boost, or the new 5.0L. Because the current 5.0L will blow away the old V8s as well, and has actually been recommended by many over the EcoBoost for people who tow (ie, people who actually use trucks as trucks).

I've driven EcoBoost versions of both the F150 and Explorer, and frankly, I came away as not particularly impressed. Contrary to what many say, I found that they do need to rev just a little to get the turbos spooling, and don't have the same off the line kick way down low as a V8.

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Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.
For the 90%+ who keep their engines stock, NA will get you more power for less money, with better long term durability.

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Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.
In light of that argument, let me ask you a couple questions. Why would a V6 Camaro owner not just buy a V6 Camry or Accord that offer similar performance, but with more practicality and better fuel economy? Why would a Camaro SS buyer not buy a 370Z, which offers similar to better overall performance with better fuel economy? After all, that Camaro body and a couple of bucks will get you the same cup of coffee at Starbucks, right?

If you think only numbers on paper, and not subjective, or emotional, or other pleasure/fun factors matter in the Camaro's segment, you do not understand the segment.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:31 PM   #37
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In the global market there is a big benefit to using the LF3. Lower taxes in Europe.
That benefits the Europeans, not the Camaro.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:54 PM   #38
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Which V8? Are you comparing the older 4.6L or 5.4L 2 or 3 valve V8s to the Eco-boost, or the new 5.0L. Because the current 5.0L will blow away the old V8s as well, and has actually been recommended by many over the EcoBoost for people who tow (ie, people who actually use trucks as trucks).
Believe you confusing the 6.2 and 5.0. There is absolutely know comparison between the towing ability of the 5.0 and the Ecoboost. Have you not seen the mirad of videos comparing the two? Even towing up a hill the Ecoboost blew the doors of the 5.0. And that was limiting the tow capacity to the max the 5.0 can handle...because the Ecoboost can two so much more.

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I've driven EcoBoost versions of both the F150 and Explorer, and frankly, I came away as not particularly impressed. Contrary to what many say, I found that they do need to rev just a little to get the turbos spooling, and don't have the same off the line kick way down low as a V8.
Ah, that tired old argument. Thought you said you understood the difference between turbo lag and torque managment when I explained it before, but...

Quote:
For the 90%+ who keep their engines stock, NA will get you more power for less money, with better long term durability.
... you keep stating opinons like this and I realize you really learn nothing. The large number of turbo cars/truck on the road today with 100s of thousands of miles on them be damned, huh?

Quote:
In light of that argument, let me ask you a couple questions. Why would a V6 Camaro owner not just buy a V6 Camry or Accord that offer similar performance, but with more practicality and better fuel economy? Why would a Camaro SS buyer not buy a 370Z, which offers similar to better overall performance with better fuel economy? After all, that Camaro body and a couple of bucks will get you the same cup of coffee at Starbucks, right?

If you think only numbers on paper, and not subjective, or emotional, or other pleasure/fun factors matter in the Camaro's segment, you do not understand the segment.
Actually, I fully get the idea. That's why I thought his comment was so stupid. Go back to his first post and my comment. I simply pointed it looked like he contridicted himself and for some reason he got his feeling hurt. As many do, the have to bring out the old "but mine sounds better" argument. It's a matter of personal preference. I think if you buy a car for the V8 sound then why buy a Camaro? The Coyote engine sounds way better. If you are a GM boy then get the Z06. Sound like what you are saying? Does it have anything to do with him contraticting himself?
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:02 PM   #39
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That benefits the Europeans, not the Camaro.
Camaros are inanimate objects, so I don't know if anything benefits them. However, it benefits GM by increasing sales of Camaros. If Ford goes global with an Ecoboost V6 Mustang (there are some rumors to that affect), then it will HURT Camaro sales if they don't have a product that will match performance and not get penalized with extra taxes.

Welcome to Global Economics.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:25 PM   #40
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I fully get the idea. That's why I thought his comment was so stupid. Go back to his first post and my comment. I simply pointed it looked like he contridicted himself and for some reason he got his feeling hurt. As many do, the have to bring out the old "but mine sounds better" argument. It's a matter of personal preference. I think if you buy a car for the V8 sound then why buy a Camaro? The Coyote engine sounds way better. If you are a GM boy then get the Z06. Sound like what you are saying? Does it have anything to do with him contraticting himself?

It's really funny when people resort to the "he got his feelings hurt" line, guess it's just a last attempt at making oneself feel better. My feelings never got hurt sorry to disappoint you. And I'm not going to keep trying to make you understand what I was saying in my original post. If you can't figure it out then oh well not my problem. As for the sound issue you keep bringing up over and over, I never said that was the main reason I or anyone for that matter buys a V8 over a V6 I merely said it's one SMALL reason as my posts clearly says. Obviously our tastes differ which is fine, but there's no need to beat a dead horse over the subject.


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Old 05-05-2013, 07:23 PM   #41
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Ah, that tired old argument. Thought you said you understood the difference between turbo lag and torque managment when I explained it before, but...
Lag, torque management....regardless, the result is the same. Both the 3.5L Ecoboost vehicles I drove felt lazy to me at low RPMs (if driven straight 6 Jeeps that felt like they had more low-end than the EcoBoosts). If the EcoBoost has to be "managed" that much, it makes me question just how durable it really is.

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... you keep stating opinons like this and I realize you really learn nothing. The large number of turbo cars/truck on the road today with 100s of thousands of miles on them be damned, huh?
If the automakers really are so confident that their turbos are foolproof and will never cause a massive expense down the road for any of their buyers, they should offer a lifetime warranty on the turbo components. Until I get it in writing that I will not be stuck with a several thousand dollar turbo job if I keep the car (AND when they offer the TTV6 for the same money as a current V8) will I be willing to accept it.

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Actually, I fully get the idea. That's why I thought his comment was so stupid. Go back to his first post and my comment. I simply pointed it looked like he contridicted himself and for some reason he got his feeling hurt. As many do, the have to bring out the old "but mine sounds better" argument. It's a matter of personal preference. I think if you buy a car for the V8 sound then why buy a Camaro? The Coyote engine sounds way better. If you are a GM boy then get the Z06. Sound like what you are saying? Does it have anything to do with him contraticting himself?
You suggested that sound doesn't matter, and that's the part I was responding to. I was merely pointing out that for many of us (not all, but many), it does matter. If it didn't, GM and Ford wouldn't spend time and man hours tuning their exhaust notes, and the aftermarket for exhaust systems wouldn't be so huge.

And you are right that it is a personal preference, and not just for sound, but in terms of power delivery and torque curve characteristics as well. And right now, I think more SS and GT buyers (and throw in R/T buyers for completeness) would prefer a V8 to a TTV6. And I think more would refuse to buy over not being able to buy a V8 than would buy because they could get a TTV6.

I've also said this before, but I have no problem with offering a TTV6 as long as I can still get a V8, AND as long as they don't raise the price of my V8 to market it. That's why I don't really care about the EcoBoost F-150. (I wouldn't buy it, but I'm not calling for Ford to drop the option, either). The V8 is still offered at the same price point, and those who want the EcoBoost can pay the extra $900 for it. It doesn't affect me.

The reason I oppose the possibility of a TTV6 Camaro (or Mustang for that matter) is I fear they won't go about it that same way. All the talk and speculation and specs on known TTV6s suggest it would be under the V8 in the hierarchy, which in my mind is a red flag that not only will the TTV6 be more expensive to buy than the current V8, but any V8 option will end up being priced even about that.
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:59 PM   #42
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I certainly hope that V-6 improvements and technology advances are going to be the wave of the future...

IMO, I think we tend to forget the current love affair with these V-8 supposed "muscle-cars" is a phenomenon that I don't think anybody expected to last as long as it has...But the V-8 engine, and all that goes with it, is not the wave of the future, unfortunately...Whatever all this European engine business is all about, it is firmly entrenched in the US already...The big V-8 is the exception, not the rule...

The variety of available V-8 series engines that GM has been or currently is making, is getting smaller and smaller....The amount of technology and research that was necessary to put into the up-coming LT-1 V-8s is astounding....I think the day will come when what they can do and are willing to do with the V-8 will be here much sooner than later...

....The V-6 will for sure become a performance engine of choice. I would much rather see that, than see the internal-combustion gasoline engine go away altogether....
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:20 PM   #43
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Pretty clever coffee story I must admit. It's cute. I have owned a vehicle in the past that had a turbo so I am quite aware of their capabilities. But we aren't talking about aftermarket mods here just factory setup. If I wanted to beat every Joe Shmoe on the road it'd be a V8 forcefed monster not a TT'd V6.

And I was simply stating that the sound factor is just a small reason why a V8 suits a Camaro better or any muscle car for that matter. I've heard plenty of turbocharged V6 Camaros and the sound is like a lawnmower on roids. Not desirable whatsoever.

If I didn't know better I would say you were a V6 owner? Bottom line, GM will never produce a Camaro with that setup, period.

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Never say Never ... GM also said they would Never use the Camaro in NASCAR, look how that turned out.

I think it could be used in the future, based on a gas guzzler tax. If the power of the TTV6 were close to the V8, with better fuel economy it could be a big seller. But then again, we really don't know where the tax situation will be at that point.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #44
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Never say Never ... GM also said they would Never use the Camaro in NASCAR, look how that turned out.

I think it could be used in the future, based on a gas guzzler tax. If the power of the TTV6 were close to the V8, with better fuel economy it could be a big seller. But then again, we really don't know where the tax situation will be at that point.
You're right I shouldn't say never because crazier and more stupid things have happened in the past. But, I'm really hoping they don't. And from a logical standpoint, it really makes no sense for GM to offer a V6 version of the Camaro that's comparible in HP with the V8 assuming they switch out the LS3 in favor of the LS7 like I've read.

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Old 05-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #45
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It may not be a regular production option...I'm thinking more along the lines of a special edition. Think about it. Every year the Camaro gets numerous "Special Editions" that run for a limited time.

2010 had the Synergy Green, Indy Pace Car, and Transformers
2011 had the XM, Synergy Series, Neiman Marcus, and another Indy Pace Car
2012 had the Honor and Valor, 45th Anniversay, Transformers, and Synergy Sries
2013 has the Dusk and Hot Wheels

Don't you think it is conceivable to have a special edition with the TTV6?
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Old 05-06-2013, 05:53 PM   #46
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It may not be a regular production option...I'm thinking more along the lines of a special edition. Think about it. Every year the Camaro gets numerous "Special Editions" that run for a limited time.

2010 had the Synergy Green, Indy Pace Car, and Transformers
2011 had the XM, Synergy Series, Neiman Marcus, and another Indy Pace Car
2012 had the Honor and Valor, 45th Anniversay, Transformers, and Synergy Sries
2013 has the Dusk and Hot Wheels

Don't you think it is conceivable to have a special edition with the TTV6?
I never actually thought about that but it would make more sense if it came out as a special edition.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:35 PM   #47
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It may not be a regular production option...I'm thinking more along the lines of a special edition. Think about it. Every year the Camaro gets numerous "Special Editions" that run for a limited time.

2010 had the Synergy Green, Indy Pace Car, and Transformers
2011 had the XM, Synergy Series, Neiman Marcus, and another Indy Pace Car
2012 had the Honor and Valor, 45th Anniversay, Transformers, and Synergy Sries
2013 has the Dusk and Hot Wheels

Don't you think it is conceivable to have a special edition with the TTV6?
I can see GM putting the TTv6 in the euro cars and selling it as a special edition in the american cars later on, same with the V8 in europe.

Sell the TTV6 in europe for 2 years then sell a v8 option for a year with a little more hp. It would work both ways, Some want power with out caring about mpg and some can get power while still having mpg. Look at all the TT hondas out there that can get 400+ hp and still can manage 30+ mpg
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
IMO, I think we tend to forget the current love affair with these V-8 supposed "muscle-cars" is a phenomenon that I don't think anybody expected to last as long as it has...But the V-8 engine, and all that goes with it, is not the wave of the future, unfortunately...Whatever all this European engine business is all about, it is firmly entrenched in the US already...The big V-8 is the exception, not the rule...
I think you're selling the V8 short. Sure, its not as common as it was 30 or 40 years ago, but it still has a niche that is bigger than most give it credit for. That it has lasted longer than anyone expected supports the notion that the demand is stronger than "anyone" thinks. Remember how much GM underestimated V8 demand just 4 years ago when the 5th gens went into production?

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Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
The variety of available V-8 series engines that GM has been or currently is making, is getting smaller and smaller....The amount of technology and research that was necessary to put into the up-coming LT-1 V-8s is astounding....I think the day will come when what they can do and are willing to do with the V-8 will be here much sooner than later...
Again, you are not giving the V8 enough credit. You are making the small block V8 sound as if it is some kind of exotic specialty engine, when in fact, it is very much mainstream. Because of the huge number of truck sales, the small block V8 is one of the higher volume engine families GM sells, not one of the lower. If you want to see which engine sells in the lowest volume at GM, look at the TTV6.

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Originally Posted by SlingShot View Post
I think it could be used in the future, based on a gas guzzler tax. If the power of the TTV6 were close to the V8, with better fuel economy it could be a big seller. But then again, we really don't know where the tax situation will be at that point.
Except the TTV6 offers no efficiency advantage over the LT1 (If anything, the LT1 is marginally more efficient). GM's own engineers have said that publicly.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Taintedveins View Post
I can see GM putting the TTv6 in the euro cars and selling it as a special edition in the american cars later on, same with the V8 in europe.

Sell the TTV6 in europe for 2 years then sell a v8 option for a year with a little more hp. It would work both ways, Some want power with out caring about mpg and some can get power while still having mpg. Look at all the TT hondas out there that can get 400+ hp and still can manage 30+ mpg
Name one factory Honda the puts out 400+hp.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:25 PM   #50
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Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but who actually gives a damn about the tree hugging Europeans?! GM and Ford should be focused on America for their pony/muscle cars, not Europe. I can understand if they care about the Spark or Sonic in relation to the global economy, because those cars matter overseas. A Camaro is a rare car overseas, and they shouldn't ruin an American enthusiast's fun because Europe is worried about co2 and engine displacement
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