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Old 04-06-2013, 12:02 PM   #51
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TT and be done with all arguements. Yah right!
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #52
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Here is the problem, if they put the 4 in then most likely it becomes the entry level car. This would be disapointing in that the 6 is a nice motor and with less weight and a few more ponies it would be great for those who want performance on a budget and still feel they have a motor that has a non-entry level feel to it. If the 4 banger was cheaper then todays ls then ok but I do not believe this will happen.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:18 PM   #53
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This was posted in another thread, and I thought it was worth copying over to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3

What I would like to see with the next gen of V6s is a small 3.1L that cranks out around 270 hp/230 ft-lbs with reasonable efficiency (probably besting the 2L turbos). That would be enough for most of the smaller vehicles that use V6s. But then have a larger one, say 3.8L, that is up at about 350 hp and 290 ft-lbs (like you mentioned) for full size cars, large crossovers, and the Camaro. Off the large one, you can make your turbo6 with similar output as the LT1 V8, for applications where it doesn't make sense to actually use the V6. There would be no point in doing a turbo version of the smaller one as it would likely barely best the big V6 in output. ...
I have to say I fully agree with this.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #54
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The 6th gen will be based on the same car as the ATS and its turbo 4 banger puts out 272 hp and 260 tq, no need for a smaller v-6.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ssrs396 View Post
The 6th gen will be based on the same car as the ATS and its turbo 4 banger puts out 272 hp and 260 tq, no need for a smaller v-6.
What??? Please read again.

The smaller V6 could be for small to midsize passenger cars, and the larger V6 for large sedans, cross-overs, SUVs, and the Camaro.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:48 PM   #56
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"(probably besting the 2ltr turbos)"
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:14 PM   #57
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I'm betting GM is waiting to see what Ford does w/ the new 2015 Mustang as far as 4 cylinder options are.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssrs396 View Post
"(probably besting the 2ltr turbos)"
Sorry...I thought you were implying we were saying to put the small V6 in the Camaro as well. I agree with you though that having a small litre V6 engine in the general lineup may not be fesible when there is aready a Turbo 4....but maybe not. We'll see.

But that 3.8 or so V6 still sounds very awesome to me.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #59
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I am the only one that would love to see the 4.3 truck motor in the 6th Gen? 290-310 HP in a lighter chassis but more importantly 310-315 lb/ft of torque, plus I bet it would sound better then the current LFX, more rumbly.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:20 AM   #60
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If you're hoping that "more rumbly" will be more like "V8-rumbly", that's not gonna happen from any size or configuration of six cylinders.


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Old 04-14-2013, 11:54 AM   #61
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Nothing wrong with a V6 in a Camaro. Not everyone wants or can afford an SS.

Heck, I think a 4 cylinder should be available for those that want it.

Who knows, maybe GM will put the 4 cylinder from the Equinox in the 6th Gen? If it can push around a 4000 lb Equinox, it should be able to push around a 5th or 6th Gen.
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Old 04-14-2013, 01:41 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unkillsam View Post
I am the only one that would love to see the 4.3 truck motor in the 6th Gen? 290-310 HP in a lighter chassis but more importantly 310-315 lb/ft of torque, plus I bet it would sound better then the current LFX, more rumbly.
I doubt we will see that engine in a Camaro. GM is reportedly working on a new family of V6 engines that I'm betting we will see.

The 4.3 has all the new tech, but as a 90 degree engine it should be high on torque but not sure if we will see 300HP out of it, but I hope we do. I'm guessing if a V6 does make it into the Camaro again it will be another high reving 60 degree engine like the current LFX, but hopefully with 340+ HP and around 290TQ. It may even have cylinder shutoff like the 4.3 does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
If you're hoping that "more rumbly" will be more like "V8-rumbly", that's not gonna happen from any size or configuration of six cylinders.


Norm
Norm, why the assumption that he mean't "V8 rumbly". We have our own form of sound that we love...so no need to jump in with a useless comment. Yeah a V6 won't ever sound just like a V8, but if you think they can't sound "rumbly" and have a good strong tone, then you are just ignorant. Nothing wrong with not knowing. It just takes a lot more work to get there than it does with the V8.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:16 PM   #63
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I can write the "GM put a truck engine in the Camaro" thread right now. That shouldn't happen. If it does it shows GM is incapable of making a decent world class product.

GM also tried a 3.0 L V6. It failed misserably because of the lack of torque and HP compared to the 3.6L. If you recall, GM launched the Equinox and SRX with 3.0L V6s and made that the base engine in the CTS. It had exactly the numbers everyone was looking for. It was not an EPIC FAIL, but it was a pretty big one. Took two years to resolve it. It gave you less power and performance and no real FE gain for the trade off.

Now if this is one of those threads (like the mythical 3,300 pound Camaro that everyone thinks is coming) that says GM should make a XXL V6 that gets 35 MPG and offers more HP than the current 3.6 and gives us V6 buyers the performance of an SS for no extra money..........................well we should shut that down right now.

Yes, GM could make a 3.0L V6 and put in the Camaro. Name your displacement. But you will run into one big problem. If you want a bigger displacement for more torque and HP you will LOSE FE, not gain. And if you want a 35 MPG Camaro, you will LOSE HP and Torque, not gain.

There is no free lunch here, guys. You can't just say "invent an all new V6 that gets the HP of an SS and the FE of a Chevy Cruze". If that could be done it would have been done.

And then there is the crowd that says, "I've got a tune and I make 350 HP in my V6". Nice, but your engine and the transmission that goes with it no longer meets GM standards for reliabilty. Sorry.

Basic point - it's just not that simple.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:00 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
Norm, why the assumption that he mean't "V8 rumbly". We have our own form of sound that we love...so no need to jump in with a useless comment. Yeah a V6 won't ever sound just like a V8, but if you think they can't sound "rumbly" and have a good strong tone, then you are just ignorant. Nothing wrong with not knowing. It just takes a lot more work to get there than it does with the V8.
Because "trying to imitate the V8 rumble" is the path that 9 out of every 10 exhaust discussions concerning 6 cylinder engines follows. Might as well head it off from the get-go.

Don't be lecturing me about the sixxer exhaust note without knowing how I feel about the topic. Two of the cars in my driveway have V6 engines. I can play a pretty sweet tune running up and down through the gears on the little 7500 rpm-capable 2.5L in my Mazda 626, now that I've swapped in a more open muffler. It more than makes up for not being all that fast by being satisfying to listen to and a whole lot of fun to drive.

Hell, I'd put an X-pipe exhaust on the V8 car that I have now if it needed exhaust system repair, like I effectively did with the V8 car I had before that. There's just something about the snarl that builds as you're running up through the midrange and it echoes off the Jersey lane barriers or when going through a tunnel . . .


FWIW, I doubt that a 90° V6 engine is considered commercially acceptable for use in a passenger car any more. Trucks, maybe. Being able to run it down the 90° V8 production line is unlikely to still be a good enough reason to outweigh the disadvantages.


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Old 04-15-2013, 01:37 PM   #65
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I can write the "GM put a truck engine in the Camaro" thread right now. That shouldn't happen. If it does it shows GM is incapable of making a decent world class product.

GM also tried a 3.0 L V6. It failed misserably because of the lack of torque and HP compared to the 3.6L. If you recall, GM launched the Equinox and SRX with 3.0L V6s and made that the base engine in the CTS. It had exactly the numbers everyone was looking for. It was not an EPIC FAIL, but it was a pretty big one. Took two years to resolve it. It gave you less power and performance and no real FE gain for the trade off.

Now if this is one of those threads (like the mythical 3,300 pound Camaro that everyone thinks is coming) that says GM should make a XXL V6 that gets 35 MPG and offers more HP than the current 3.6 and gives us V6 buyers the performance of an SS for no extra money..........................well we should shut that down right now.

Yes, GM could make a 3.0L V6 and put in the Camaro. Name your displacement. But you will run into one big problem. If you want a bigger displacement for more torque and HP you will LOSE FE, not gain. And if you want a 35 MPG Camaro, you will LOSE HP and Torque, not gain.

There is no free lunch here, guys. You can't just say "invent an all new V6 that gets the HP of an SS and the FE of a Chevy Cruze". If that could be done it would have been done.

And then there is the crowd that says, "I've got a tune and I make 350 HP in my V6". Nice, but your engine and the transmission that goes with it no longer meets GM standards for reliabilty. Sorry.

Basic point - it's just not that simple.
Actually, it is kind of simple. I don't think anyone can really disagree with what you said there. Except that we aren't (or well, speaking for myself here) looking for some mythical thing.

What I'm looking for a is a combination of things:

1) 340ish HP V6 with a bit more torque than the current LFX...not much, but naturally if the HP rises by 15 or so, then surely we can expect a bit more torque hopefully.

2) Lighter weight. We already know by looking at the ATs that we should be able to see around 300 lbs lost.

3) 8 speed transmission in the auto.

I don't see any reason whatsoever they couldn't get a 3.6 or 3.7 V6 to make those kind of power numbers...its possible without really even being much of a stretch.

With the lighter weight and gearing, I don't see why at least 32 - 34 MPG highway wouldn't be possible.

So I think what I'm asking for is pretty realistic. Not asking for what your mentioning above. What your mentioning above is not much different than the SS owners asking for the next V8 in the Camaro to have 500 horsepower. Thats just silly talk right there.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:48 PM   #66
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Lots of talk about the possibility of a turbo 4 in the 6th gen (and I'm betting it will happen) and lots of talk about the new LT1.

There is not as much talk about a V6 engine. (not talking turbo V6 here...just N/A)

First off, let me say, that with a light enough Camaro...somewhere in the 3,300 lb range, a turbo 4 could be a great performer. Especially if they give it 300HP/300TQ or more power.

But with that said, I feel that there could be good space for a V6 in the lineup, and I really hope to see one for several reasons. The current LFX is rated at 323HP, and 278TQ. I don't see why with some tweaking in the 3.6, that can't be raised to somewhere around 330 - 340HP, and 280 - 290 TQ. Keep the gear ratio at the current 3.27, weight around 3,400lbs like the Cadillac ATS and you have yourself a V6 capable of running mid 5s to 60mph and mid to high 13s in the quarter mile. Not to mention, with the lighter weight, I don't see why 30+ mpg on the highway wouldn't be doable.

Lets take that a step further and say they give the car a 7 or 8 speed automatic. That should help performance further, as well as raise hwy MPGs well past the 30 mark. (offtopic, but I hope they keep the tapshift...yes I really enjoy it!)

If we don't see the LFX in the next gen, then I see a case for an engine similar to the new 4.3 going in the Silverado. One bonus about this engine, is the fact that it has cylinder de-activation. I'm betting in a light car, with the proper gears, that it could return some very pleasing MPGs on the highway. Mid to upper 30s easy. Hell, why would you even need a turbo 4 with efficency like that?? For truck duty, that engine is likely cammed and tuned for great torque, and decent horsepower. I'd guess 300+TQ and HP around the same levels. If tweaked for HP, instead of Torque, (similar to how the Ford 5.0 is for Mustang vs. the F150) it should be capable of fantastic numbers.

So here, in my opinion you have the perfect combination of power and efficency. I know to some, nothing less than V8 power will do, and I have no problems with that. But for me, I really love my modded V6. She runs strong. The only big issue I have with the 5th gen is the weight. Some days I drive my (modded) car and think "damn shes running good!" and at other times...I wish I had another 20 - 30 HP/TQ on tap, or about 300+ lbs less weight.

I have no real desire to move to an SS (although I do love that V8 rumble), and with the weight drop that should be coming, I'd buy a V6 all over again. It would be a fantastic car, and don't get me started on how well I think a nicely modded V6 would perform in a light weight Camaro.

So....what do you all think?
I do.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:30 PM   #67
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The V8 is a dinosaur. Mercedes is going with 6 cylinder turbos in their performance cars within the next 2 years. The Caddy CTS will have 3 engine options, the 2.0 turbo 4, the NA 3.6 V6 And the TT 3.6 V6. Those are the options for the Next Camaro. You might see the V8 in a high performance model such as the next gen ZL1 or Z28.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:44 AM   #68
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The V8 is a dinosaur. Mercedes is going with 6 cylinder turbos in their performance cars within the next 2 years.
Only because of external regulatory pressures that have little to do with engine architecture. Mercedes is simply bowing to those arbitrary requirements.


Quote:
The Caddy CTS will have 3 engine options, the 2.0 turbo 4, the NA 3.6 V6 And the TT 3.6 V6. Those are the options for the Next Camaro. You might see the V8 in a high performance model such as the next gen ZL1 or Z28.
Know that the 90° V8 is clearly a better arrangement than any of those in at least one significant respect, that being internal balance. You perceive this as 'smoothness'. Inline fours tend to get a bit rough at displacements much past 2.0L, as do most V-sixes at much bigger than about 3.5L. Think "thrashy at high rpms". It can be crutched to some extent through the added cost, complexity, and weight of adding balance shafts. Or by soft and expensive engine mounts. Neither technique benefits performance.

I actually like IL-4's and V6's - as long as their displacement limitations are respected rather than crowded.


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Old 04-16-2013, 09:31 AM   #69
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The V8 is a dinosaur. Mercedes is going with 6 cylinder turbos in their performance cars within the next 2 years. The Caddy CTS will have 3 engine options, the 2.0 turbo 4, the NA 3.6 V6 And the TT 3.6 V6. Those are the options for the Next Camaro. You might see the V8 in a high performance model such as the next gen ZL1 or Z28.
This may be a thread about the V6 option, and I'm a big advocate for it. But I definitely disagree with your statement. The V8 is no "dinosaur", and you can bet it will be back again in the "SS" model, or whatever designation they give to the higher performance version in the 6th gen.

I still believe the V6 is the one in most danger of going away...at least in this particular vehicle. The Caddy gets the TT 3.6 in part to the fact that they want to push this car more in overseas segments, which are used to seeing more boosted V6s in cars like that.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:51 PM   #70
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Because "trying to imitate the V8 rumble" is the path that 9 out of every 10 exhaust discussions concerning 6 cylinder engines follows. Might as well head it off from the get-go.

Don't be lecturing me about the sixxer exhaust note without knowing how I feel about the topic. Two of the cars in my driveway have V6 engines. I can play a pretty sweet tune running up and down through the gears on the little 7500 rpm-capable 2.5L in my Mazda 626, now that I've swapped in a more open muffler. It more than makes up for not being all that fast by being satisfying to listen to and a whole lot of fun to drive.

Hell, I'd put an X-pipe exhaust on the V8 car that I have now if it needed exhaust system repair, like I effectively did with the V8 car I had before that. There's just something about the snarl that builds as you're running up through the midrange and it echoes off the Jersey lane barriers or when going through a tunnel . . .


FWIW, I doubt that a 90° V6 engine is considered commercially acceptable for use in a passenger car any more. Trucks, maybe. Being able to run it down the 90° V8 production line is unlikely to still be a good enough reason to outweigh the disadvantages.


Norm
If I wanted the V8 rumble I would have bought a V8. The V6 is enough car for me.

Obviosly any V6 will not sound like a V8, but the 4.3 would have a deeper sound then the 3.6, based on my experiences with the old version of the 4.3

Thanks for assuming Norm.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:14 PM   #71
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Sorry...I thought you were implying we were saying to put the small V6 in the Camaro as well. I agree with you though that having a small litre V6 engine in the general lineup may not be fesible when there is aready a Turbo 4....but maybe not. We'll see.

But that 3.8 or so V6 still sounds very awesome to me.
3.8 sounds awesome to me too. Had three of them. rock solid motor.
Supercharge and mod it.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #72
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The main thing the 6th gen needs is WEIGHT reduction. If GM can get weight down to the 3500lbs range, which going to the lighter caddy chassis can do, the current LFX will be fine on the 6th gen. I would not mind getting current LFX on a 3500lb 6th gen at all. All I would want is a a TQ increase w/ current LFX---oh somewhere around 300 TQ would be sweet.
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Old 04-21-2013, 03:26 PM   #73
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Nothing wrong with a V6 in a Camaro. Not everyone wants or can afford an SS.

Heck, I think a 4 cylinder should be available for those that want it.

Who knows, maybe GM will put the 4 cylinder from the Equinox in the 6th Gen? If it can push around a 4000 lb Equinox, it should be able to push around a 5th or 6th Gen.
Correct! And in 1967 guess what the first option of the camaro was? It wasnt a V6, but an I6!

9/10, they'll have the TT4cyl (or single Turbo at minimum), a V6, SS, 1LE (hopefully more HP than the SS) and Z/28. I beleive the ZL-1 will not be made after this generation. No way they delete the Z/28 from the list as its ALWAYS been made every gen even if you were simply buying a badge in the late 70s though now.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:08 PM   #74
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Actually, it is kind of simple. I don't think anyone can really disagree with what you said there. Except that we aren't (or well, speaking for myself here) looking for some mythical thing.

What I'm looking for a is a combination of things:

1) 340ish HP V6 with a bit more torque than the current LFX...not much, but naturally if the HP rises by 15 or so, then surely we can expect a bit more torque hopefully.

2) Lighter weight. We already know by looking at the ATs that we should be able to see around 300 lbs lost.

3) 8 speed transmission in the auto.

I don't see any reason whatsoever they couldn't get a 3.6 or 3.7 V6 to make those kind of power numbers...its possible without really even being much of a stretch.

With the lighter weight and gearing, I don't see why at least 32 - 34 MPG highway wouldn't be possible.

So I think what I'm asking for is pretty realistic. Not asking for what your mentioning above. What your mentioning above is not much different than the SS owners asking for the next V8 in the Camaro to have 500 horsepower. Thats just silly talk right there.
I'm with you on the HP. Getting to 340 with a bump in torque is possible with continued refinement. But the LFX already was a nice refinement. So you could go to 3.7 or 3.8 and manage 340.

The only problem I have is getting MORE HP and MORE torque and also getting MORE MPG. Gearing with an 8 speed will get about 1 MPG according to something I read. It isn't a giant number. So that 1 MPG would only offset the added HP and Torque. So you are back to 30. As I said before, 50% of your highway number is aero. Mass is a portion for sure, but not as big as aero.

Now if you want the package, you only have to look at the Audi S4 I'm driving now. (long story but the ATS just didn't cut it and Audi fits golf clubs in the trunk far better than the gymnastics required to get two sets in the Cadillac). The S4 weighs about what a Camaro V6 weighs. But the wonderfullness is the 3.0 L supercharged V6. It makes 333 HP but the big fun comes from the 325 lbft of torque. It pulls like no other V6 car I've driven and will do a sub 5 second 0-60. The drivability is incredible and in sport mode with the DCT it is pretty much awesome. It's rated at 28 EPA, the same as the ATS.

So a lighter Camaro and more torque would be great for sure. Just not sure if you can have that AND better FE.

The lighter ATS with the Camaro V6 is only rated at 28. So the lighter ATS will not automatically reasult in better FE.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:47 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
The main thing the 6th gen needs is WEIGHT reduction. If GM can get weight down to the 3500lbs range, which going to the lighter caddy chassis can do, the current LFX will be fine on the 6th gen. I would not mind getting current LFX on a 3500lb 6th gen at all. All I would want is a a TQ increase w/ current LFX---oh somewhere around 300 TQ would be sweet.
I agree that weight is number 1. I've always thought that, but if they wanted to throw in a little power bump for the V6 I wouldn't complain about that lol. Next gen V6 or T4 should definitely be in the 3,400lb range or less according to the current Cadillac ATS and I'd be happy with that. If it is over 3,500 I'll be dissapointed. Over 3,600 would be ridiculous in my opinion. I fully expect the next gen SS to be betwee 3,500 to 3,600 lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
I'm with you on the HP. Getting to 340 with a bump in torque is possible with continued refinement. But the LFX already was a nice refinement. So you could go to 3.7 or 3.8 and manage 340.

The only problem I have is getting MORE HP and MORE torque and also getting MORE MPG. Gearing with an 8 speed will get about 1 MPG according to something I read. It isn't a giant number. So that 1 MPG would only offset the added HP and Torque. So you are back to 30. As I said before, 50% of your highway number is aero. Mass is a portion for sure, but not as big as aero.

Now if you want the package, you only have to look at the Audi S4 I'm driving now. (long story but the ATS just didn't cut it and Audi fits golf clubs in the trunk far better than the gymnastics required to get two sets in the Cadillac). The S4 weighs about what a Camaro V6 weighs. But the wonderfullness is the 3.0 L supercharged V6. It makes 333 HP but the big fun comes from the 325 lbft of torque. It pulls like no other V6 car I've driven and will do a sub 5 second 0-60. The drivability is incredible and in sport mode with the DCT it is pretty much awesome. It's rated at 28 EPA, the same as the ATS.

So a lighter Camaro and more torque would be great for sure. Just not sure if you can have that AND better FE.

The lighter ATS with the Camaro V6 is only rated at 28. So the lighter ATS will not automatically reasult in better FE.
I'm not dissmissing your points...you may end up being right that even with the current power the LFX makes, with less weight, and higher gearing that only 1 more MPG may be possible. Maybe they could only get 30 on the highway, but I hope they can pull off something a bit more without sacrificing power.

I think the next gen V6 (if it comes) HAS to be mid to low 5 second to 60mph, and at least a high 13 second 1/4 mile car. Hell, the current mustang V6 is basically that already with the performance package installed. It is is no faster than the current stock V6, I fear the performance difference between Fords base pony car and Chevy's will be too wide to be acceptable. The Cadillac ATS with the V6 and same gearing as the Camaro pulls off a mid 5 second 0 - 60 already, so I believe the Camaro will as well.
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