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Old 03-13-2013, 01:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
As it is currently, a V8 Camaro on Alpha should be between 3,500 to 3,600 lbs...closer to 3,600.
I hope that's WITH the automatic tranny and a good increase in HP. It should be no more than 3600lbs and have 500 HP. That's ideal.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:31 PM   #27
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I'm not saying it's good or bad, either way, but all of the people demanding huge weight cuts on this car are also screaming there's too much plastic, the paint is too thin, the body dents too easy, etc. You can't expect to have your cake and eat it, too. Life is full of compromise; so is engineering and manufacturing.

It's coming whether we like it or not. I'm glad I've got mine. I hope for good things to come for the rest of you. If you only car about weight and performance, start removing components that don't figure into that equation. Making the chassis thinner just leaves you with a noodle, at some point.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:06 PM   #28
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I'm not saying it's good or bad, either way, but all of the people demanding huge weight cuts on this car are also screaming there's too much plastic, the paint is too thin, the body dents too easy, etc. You can't expect to have your cake and eat it, too. Life is full of compromise; so is engineering and manufacturing.

It's coming whether we like it or not. I'm glad I've got mine. I hope for good things to come for the rest of you. If you only car about weight and performance, start removing components that don't figure into that equation. Making the chassis thinner just leaves you with a noodle, at some point.
Isn't that why the camaro SS was produced? For performance? Both the mustang and challenger outperform the SS. Now I understand the challenger has 45HP more than an SS but a mustang has less HP and out performs it. If you're buying the car for looks alone then get a V6. Guys who want the muscle performance from the factory should get just that. It's a war, but the camaro SHOULD outperform in many categories. And weight has become an issue that they can cut back on.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:23 PM   #29
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So good job GM CEO lets make our american muscle cars more like the foreign versions by using lighter less durable materials. I personally love the weight of our cars. Then again i've been in a few accidents where my heavier american car practically made an audi dissapear in a shower of less durable materials. So everyone has their opinions i spose. Why is it that everyone thinks weights the issue that we're slower honestly i think it's the way our ECM's are programmed to limit the torque output.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:34 PM   #30
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Well.. The 2013 mustang 5.0 weighs in at 3675 auto tranny. 2013 camaro SS is 3900 lbs. big difference there. No ones asking GM to produce a tin can camaro. But it's not rocket science to cut 300 lbs off of a car that can still withstand a bit more HP or is it?
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:44 PM   #31
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So good job GM CEO lets make our american muscle cars more like the foreign versions by using lighter less durable materials. I personally love the weight of our cars. Then again i've been in a few accidents where my heavier american car practically made an audi dissapear in a shower of less durable materials. So everyone has their opinions i spose. Why is it that everyone thinks weights the issue that we're slower honestly i think it's the way our ECM's are programmed to limit the torque output.
Thinking that weight isn't a problem with GM platforms is sticking your head in the sand.

It's been holding back very competent and competitive cars for years now. While it's true that at the time some of these overweight programs were in development, GM didn't have the cash, time, or resources to tackle the problem, they do now.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:46 PM   #32
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And besides, the 5th gen is built on a full size sedan's platform. That didn't help with weight at all.

Alpha was built with weight reduction and performance applications in mind. The 6th gen will be lighter and perform much better than the 5th gen.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:50 PM   #33
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I'm extremely surprised by the reactions in this thread. I would have figured that the people of C5 would have been out dancing in the streets from this news with all the complaining I read about on here, on a daily basis about weight.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:53 PM   #34
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I'm extremely surprised by the reactions in this thread. I would have figured that the people of C5 would have been out dancing in the streets from this news with all the complaining I read about on here, on a daily basis about weight.
If it's something that will make their 5th gens obsolete, Camaro5 members will hate it.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #35
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If it's something that will make their 5th gens obsolete, Camaro5 members will hate it.



It is useless to fight the inevitable.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:00 PM   #36
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I'm extremely surprised by the reactions in this thread. I would have figured that the people of C5 would have been out dancing in the streets from this news with all the complaining I read about on here, on a daily basis about weight.
Much of the ppl are excited for the new platform. Here's the issue at hand. We ALL know how popular this car has become. GM should've taken into account from the get go on weight reduction to compete. What you have now is a hope and prayer that the 6th gen looks as good or better than it is currently. We're behind our competitors a bit and that's frustrating. At the track the 1LE and ZL-1 are great cars. But the SS lacks in competition amongst its rivals no? I love my car, but I wish it'd be a bit more competive out the gate or following yr than to just have a few upgrades on components here and there that make no difference for whet the purpose of the car is for. And that's strictly performance.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:08 PM   #37
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We only complain because the weight shaving is not enough. We want a feather light 500HP camaro that takes off the line like a rocket and blows the competition away like a hurricane
you want that buy a 4th gen shell and put a 5th gen drive train in it with some stroking on that LS3 you'll be there at half the price of a new 5th gen SS if you do all the work yourself
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:29 PM   #38
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you want that buy a 4th gen shell and put a 5th gen drive train in it with some stroking on that LS3 you'll be there at half the price of a new 5th gen SS if you do all the work yourself
That'd be ideal, if only it looked as good as the 5th gen
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:00 PM   #39
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If it's something that will make their 5th gens obsolete, Camaro5 members will hate it.
Um....broad-statement-much? You, of all people, fen...should be able to appreciate the concept of a "vocal minority"...further, the "I hate it now, but in 6 months I'll love it" crowd.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:08 PM   #40
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It's just an observation I've noticed. Anything new or changed is met with a good deal of resistance here. The only thing I can conclude from that is people simply don't want their 5th gens to become yesterday's news.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:10 PM   #41
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It's just an observation I've noticed. Anything new or changed is met with a good deal of resistance here. The only thing I can conclude from that is people simply don't want their 5th gens to become yesterday's news.
That's fair. But by naming the site, I felt as though you were reflecting on the majority here, and I don't believe that's the case.....I'd also contend that it's less of an insecurity-based issue, and more of an extreme passion/enthusiasm or "I believe Camaro is: this - don't change it"...issue.

We saw this much worse right after the concept Camaro came out. Some 4th-gen die-hard absolutely hated the concept of a new Camaro as it developed........now, many of those folks are driving one.

...though, not all. You can't please everyone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #42
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All I'm saying is the 5th gen's done its job, and it has done its job very well. It was saddled with a weight issue from the start (and if any of you remember, I was one of the people who hated it when people brought up and complained about the weight constantly), but GM managed to make the most of the car despite its shortcomings.

Now we're moving on to a brand new platform that promises to be lighter and perform much better than the 5th gen. I really fail to see the problem with this. As someone said earlier, I'm surprised at all the negative responses to what can only be a positive thing for the nameplate. One of the primary complaints about the 5th gen has always been the weight of the Zeta platform, and GM is addressing that. Somehow that's now a bad thing.

If people are worried that GM will simply cut corners to reduce weight, they're worrying about nothing as demonstrated by the ATS. The 6th gen will be just as durable, just as planted as the 5th gen.

Furthermore, note that Akerson's talking about weight reduction across the board. The Epsilon II platform is ridiculously overweight. In all honesty, every GM platform could stand to lose a couple pounds. It's not just Camaro we're talking about here.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:48 PM   #43
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It's just an observation I've noticed. Anything new or changed is met with a good deal of resistance here. The only thing I can conclude from that is people simply don't want their 5th gens to become yesterday's news.
"Anything new", heh. We're muscle car enthusiasts who keep getting news about how the next gen will be more efficient, and not how it's going to be more powerful. If you want us to be more positive, give us positive news.

I would like a lighter muscle car, too. But I can already buy a lighter car if I wanted to. I want a muscle car first.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:55 PM   #44
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"Anything new", heh. We're muscle car enthusiasts who keep getting news about how the next gen will be more efficient, and not how it's going to be more powerful. If you want us to be more positive, give us positive news.

I would like a lighter muscle car, too. But I can already buy a lighter car if I wanted to. I want a muscle car first.
LT1. You can have your cake and eat it too.

And you can change that last number and be happy as well.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:00 PM   #45
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The only thing I see from this announcement is prices on new cars going up. I love the idea of weight reduction, but same with CAFE regulations I think they need to have REALISTIC time frames.... giving a deadline of 2016 seems too fast to do and that's what worries me... short deadlines means expensive measures.

That said - Dan Akerson is a beast and I love listening to him talk.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:32 PM   #46
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There is no doubt that moving to higher strength steel , carbon fiber type composites , aluminum , etc can help shed weight, but odds are they will add to the overall cost of manufacturing the vehicles. Will people be willing to pay more? Time will tell.

i work for a company that tests automotive components and entire vehicles for all the manufacturers, and we were just commenting the other day just how much a simple control arm has changed over the years.

In the OLD days, they "seemed" to be stamped out of 1/4" plate steel and weighed a ton. Nowadays with all the solid modeling tools they have, the same control arm has morphed into a sleek hollow aluminum casting with much more strength, and only a fraction of the weight.

We have come a long way over the years.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:29 PM   #47
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If you don't like CAFE, deal with the government. Complaining that GM is compliant is not helpful. If GM stood against fuel economy standards, there would be a publicity fight with all the people who support them, and that's bad for business.
It would be interesting to see how many more people would flock to GM for producing cars they actually want with engines and drivetrains and size they actually want.

Remember when we had CAFE and the car companies figured out that SUVs could skirt the laws by virtue of being classified as trucks? They were much bigger and less efficient than the cars were at the time and what actually happened was that people who wanted a large safe vehicle to protect their passengers and themselves practically jumped over the econoboxes to get their hands on an SUV. I believe if one brave automaker would build a car that people want and sell it at the actual cost (sans the hidden fees imposed to modify buyers choices) they would have a massive hit on their hands.

Quote:
This community has advocated weight reduction for a long time. To be scared of getting exactly what we want is ridiculous.
Weight reduction is good when you can get it affordably, but to add thousands of dollars to the price of a car to get 2MPG more mileage would cost more than the fuel it saves, so it is pointless.

The same weight savings that you get by switching out some piece of aluminum for magnesium (at 50% higher cost) could be accomplished by getting rid of mandates that have porked up our cars to this point. It will lower the cost of the car in the process too.

For example: You can save 10 pounds and $300 by NOT being forced to buy a car with backup sensors and cameras that are required by "law".

You can save 1 or 2 pounds and $50 by deleting the CHMSL as well.

How much does a craptalytic converter weigh and what does it cost?

Cars would be lighter AND less expensive by having less mandatory content. Let people decide which items they buy, instead of mandating them.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:35 PM   #48
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Only on Camaro5 would reducing vehicle weight (which is something enthusiasts and the media have been clamoring at GM to do and is addressing an acknowledged problem with GM platforms) be interpreted as a bad thing.
It's not weight reduction that is a bad thing per se. It's a good thing. To summarize my last post, they are saving weight by doing things that cost a lot of money instead of finding ways to get rid of useless features that add weight and cost but are being FORCED onto the cars.

We don't need 5MPH bumpers. Learn to drive instead.
We don't need Backup sensors and cameras, learn to drive instead.

Which is more useful?
a) A backup camera.
b) A spare tire and jack.

Yet, one is required and the other is not.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:40 PM   #49
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...if NASCAR reduced the Gen 6 Cup car by 150 pounds, it's not very hard for GM to go on a leaner meaner plan as well, it makes sense, and it's easily doable.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:42 PM   #50
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Um....broad-statement-much? You, of all people, fen...should be able to appreciate the concept of a "vocal minority"...further, the "I hate it now, but in 6 months I'll love it" crowd.
The same is true for the "Shut up, because it's gonna be AWESOME!" but in 12 months the "Hey!!!! THIS SUCKS! What idiot said they should do this?!?!?!" crowd.
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