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Old 08-19-2013, 01:14 AM   #182
Doc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverds View Post
I think the greatest appeal of both the classic and modern "muscle car" is that they do not appear competitive against the more aerodynamically styled sports cars. They are not the sleekest, lightest or most aerodynamically efficient vehicles. Either from stoplight to stoplight, on the 1/4 or on the road course, you want the guy in the sports car with jet plane aerodynamics to be befuddled as to how you beat him. He bought a Ferrari, so what? You bought an engine, suspension and brake package that defies the common understanding of physics for half the price or less.

The fact that a 2012 ZL1 puts down almost equal stats as a 2012 Corvette Grandsport, is what I'm talking about. The common person does not believe a Camaro and a Corvette are in the same league. When they line up at the start of any type of race, most bets would be for the car that looks faster. At least until the Green light or flag drops.

Now I'm not saying putting an LS9 into a Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't shock everyone but you still want to look a little cool in your car.

I believe it is the powerful image of the 5th Gen that reinvigorated the Camaro. It seems to me it was the "bubbly" flowing aerodynamics that killed the Camaro's appeal and sales from 1993 - 2002. At least, no Camaro since the first gen has appealed to me until the 5th Gen. Tap into that main design difference and you may find the formula that actually works for Camaro. The Camaro shouldn't look like it's trying to compete at Le Mans. It should look like a great car to drive all week and then shock everyone at your local Club Race. Also remember that, as the platform gets smaller, the passengers dont. A smaller platform will still need to look like it seats 4 with some measure of comfort. If the greenhouse is too short, it begins to look like it wants to be a Corvette.


This holden HSV Coupe concept contains some styling cues that I hope might illustrate (but not necessarily exemplify) what I'm trying to describe. I already mentioned the largish fascia with headlight lenses that face the wind and large air-sucking holes. The forward lean with every line sloping downwards toward the front. The line that curves around the front fender flair and then extends back until it outlines the rear deck. The lines from the vents that also extend back until they either join the rear wheel flair or fade into the rear. The rear end angled upward and a large diffuser that looks like the car is showing you its balls as it passes. The whole car looks like it's pushing wind out of it's way rather than slipping gracefully through it. "It shouldn't appear to be as fast and agile as it is."




Your comment about muscle cars "appearing" to not be competitive to sports cars wasn't a design choice. Back in the day it was more a choice of having to mass produce a car on a Detroit assembly line with stamped sheet metal as opposed to the Ferrari, Jaguar, Maserati, Porsche bodies that were hand-sculpted which is why they were so aerodynamic looking. The "foreign" exotics would be produced in hundreds per year while Detroit could crank out hundreds of thousands. They didn't have computer controlled anything back then the way they do now.

People certainly wanted the exotic look but most couldn't afford it. Enter pony/muscle cars which, even though they weren't exactly exotic looking were more "sporty" like looks-wise. However they made up for their lack of exotic looks with the one thing Detroit did best; engines. Detroit iron could deliver massive amounts of horsepower and torque compared to their "foreign" counterparts and that gave pony/muscle cars their advantage to overcome the aerodynamic shortcomings of their stamped sheet metal bodies. And while they were at it they also happened to deliver some pretty darned attractive bodies out of stamped sheet metal too.

And best of all? These Detroit machines were affordable! Hot rodders could mod the crud out of their muscle cars because engines and transmissions were cheap then and it was easy to do; completely the opposite of the foreign exotic cars. Thus everyone could make their car their "own" which was pretty much as popular as the car itself; a tradition that continues today.

Jump to today and computerized design/manufacturing along with the amazing improvements in materials has enabled manufacturers to do things their forefathers in the 60's could hardly even dream of. People "want it all" now and designers/manufacturers are delivering. I'm seeing bodywork and sculpted lines on everyday cars you wouldn't have seen on anything less than a custom, hand-built, one-off studio design concept 50 years ago. And they can mass produce cars like this now!

But still...people love the exotic look. The 5th gen, although inspired by the 1969 Camaro was a fabulous modern design that looked fast and powerful. GM took a gamble on it and it paid off big. Considering the "hot trend" 7 years ago was eco-friendly hybrids like the Prius, the idea of producing a car like the 5th gen was crazy. But people loved it. It looked exotic compared to eco cars but eco cars, small cars, sedans, even SUV's have made vast improvements in their styling and are borrowing heavily from the "exotic" look now days. However with the Z/28 climbing up there in price this new generation of hybrid muscle/sports/exotic is starting to get pricey.

So what do you do when everybody starts to have the same kinds of "looks" in their vehicle designs? My thought? Take it beyond to the next level. I'm thinking something that looks like NASA might have designed it; pure form and function...military jet fighter-like. Nobody is doing that right now; they're all doing batman movie-car/joker limo/gangster/heavy beast/transformer robot look. My thought is that a sleek, clean, no-nonsense, no-gimmick look that is as fast as it looks might be the next "new thing". I could be wrong; there's no doubt doing current trendy will sell for a few years but in the long run I'm thinking a clean, beautiful design will appeal to a wide range of buyers and have more staying power in the marketplace. A great design is still great 5 years from now; a trendy design isn't.

Great great discussion though... I really appreciate you taking the time to give this feedback!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssrs396 View Post
Ok don't laugh as I am using paint but I was thinking something along this line. Of course it needs shading and straight lines ....lol
I'm not laughing at all; believe me, I appreciate you taking the time and effort because this isn't easy by any means! Here's a couple of renders based on yours and others suggestions. View A has the big fender flares that usually gives the visual appearance of "muscle". View B is a version of your idea.
Name:  2016 Camaro Concept8b4.jpg
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Size:  169.2 KB

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverds View Post
Here are some GM concepts built on the Alpha platform to use as possible scale references.

EDIT: Though Doc may be on to something in his sleeker more sport oriented design for his Camaro concept. From my reading on these alpha platform based concepts it seems from rumors that GM may be sliding a long lost and familiar nameplate in between the Camaro and SS. ...."Chevelle".

"My comments below are in red - Doc"


"My first thought when seeing this: FROG"


"Fiat on steroids (proof steroids are bad for you)"

Does anyone else see Camaro inspired lines in this Buick Riviera Concept?


"I do and in fact it looks a lot like the George Loizou concept render"


"Beautiful...!"


"Porsche 911"


"Nice looking. Front looks like it was inspired by an SUV but still very nicely done."

Based on those images showing the Alpha platform I think I'm pretty darned close on the wheelbase for my designs. My wheels might be a touch too big though, but maybe those concept wheels are smaller than I think...maybe 17's or 18's? My design is for 19's or 20's.

After studying it I realized that Holden concept car has that beefy look because of those massive fender flares. Take those away and it's a nice looking sedan but wouldn't have that muscle look. That seems to be the trick with the "muscle" look nowadays is to go with big beefy fender flare extensions. Pick-up trucks and SUV's are having that look now. In the A view of my design I posted up above I put big fender flares on the design but either I did it wrong or it just doesn't work with my design. It looks "off" to me; doesn't look like they belong... maybe it's just me.

Since everybody is currently fishing with their designs to try and be different it's interesting to see what they're experimenting with on those concept cars.

I want the Camaro to be leading-edge. I don't want it to be a "trend". I realize many want a "man" car but I'm trying to design a muscle/sports car that appeals to more than just young males. The Camaro has a large female customer base and I think it would be a mistake to alienate them. I want the Camaro to look fast, clean, pure, precision, refined.... powerful yet elegant and classy. Something you can take a date out to dinner in; yet make no mistake... at any given moment... "Camaro; you are cleared for launch" and blam...you're supersonic. I'm taking a chance here with this concept; bucking the trend. Maybe it could be a Chevelle. Maybe it could be something new; more refined than a Camaro; not as "wild child" as a Corvette; not as luxury as a Cadillac. A new breed of performance elegance.

Or quite possibly.....I'm just wasting my time HAH! But at any rate this is more interesting than watching the junk on TV.
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