Really? No market? You've actually spent the money on clinics and a marketing study? You must have to have used all caps like that. Again there was already a 4 cylinder Camaro and they actually sold some.

If they make it perform well it will sell. Not saying how many but it would sell.

However, and most people seem to be missing the point, our government is trying to force the market with CAFE. That has been my only point and for some unexplainable reason some of you want to argue with me about what the market wants. Our government does not card one bit about whether or not enthusiasts on this site would buy a 4 cylinder or not. They WILL NOT ( appropriate use of caps ) raise gas taxes to drive us to smaller engines. They have simply legislated fuel economy requirements. Now maybe GM will invent a DOD V8 that runs on 2 cylinders and meets that standard. I don't know. But for now they don't have to do anything. But very soon they will need something to be compliant. 4 cylinder? Hybrid? Voltec propulsion? Who knows.

But please guys, for all our sakes, take this passion and direct it to Congress. Trying to shout me down won't change what's coming. It's just the law now. Sorry you don't want to believe it.

No need, it's obvious.

Just needed to draw attention to the important part that you keep ignoring in favor of pointing out whatever personal failings you think I have.

"Some".

How many?

Here's a quote from Al Oppenheiser: "“We’re not following Ford”, Oppenheiser told AG during the 2013 SEMA show. “As long as they’ll pay me to be the chief engineer, I’m going to fight for every horsepower I can and every cylinder I can."

He get's it. Why don't you?

Or rather, why do you think Al is being obtuse about not accepting 4 cylinders, as you so remarkably have? Is he also deranged?

Good to hear! It's pretty nice down here, I'm really enjoying my job. What are you up to now?

IBM....how far is your mouth going to drop when you hear of the first EcoBoost 4 cylinder Mustang wooping a stock L99 SS at the track with nothing more than a tune and a couple bolt ons??

Sorry if you interpret that as me rooting for 4 cylinders in a pony car. Its not. I don't really want to own one at this point, but facts are facts and the fact is that a turbo 4 pony car is not a slow car.

Kids and young adults that have an interest in the "tuner" market and their turbo 4 cylinder cars are going to have an interest in these cars. How popular they become has yet to be seen, but if the younger generation has a say, I think they will be popular.

GM/Chevrolet wants to be a global brand. Some country they tax the car by the CC. The higher the CC, the more expensive it will be. So the 4 cylinder Camaro sales will do just fine in other countries ( Especially in Asia and Europe).

Irrelevant. We're talking about the powerplant in one car, not different cars from different generations. "How will that new 4 cylinder Mustang compare to the V8 Mustang from that generation?", is the question.

Why apologize? You're unknowingly making my point; the people who are in favor of the of the 4 cylinder option will not buy one. Who is going to, though?

"The business end of it is if you want viable Camaro in the future that you can call "American Muscle" then you will have to accept the fact as GM will that CAFE will set the automotive future whether you like it or not.

As an enthusiast (and I won't challenge more than you as I don't claim to know you) I can assure you that discussion absolutely belongs in an enthusiast site. It's the future of everyone that love driving, not just muscle cars, but just driving and enjoying your car. You want to get even darker into the future imagine the Camaro that drives itself. Imagine roads you won't be able to drive on if you don't have an autonomous automobile that is wirelessly connected.

You may not want to have that conversation either but it's coming.

Please refrain from you challenges that we go to other websites. As an enthusiast since the day I turned a key, I can assure you those conversations belong here and more importantly outside of here. The government wants nothing more than to take the wheel out of your and my hands."


If you Guys haven't been enthusiastic about cheerleading for hybrid/ Prius Camaro 's I don't see how this has gone on for 30 some odd pages!

If the gubment makes rules that the Camaro has to be a four cylinder econo crap wagon (like the iron duke you keep bringing up like it's somehow helping your point). Then as I have stated previously I won't buy one. (Unless they also pass Obama car (like Obamacare except you have to buy a car).

I'm sure you guys will though, so it will work out for them.

Answer me one question though, how many of you 4 cylinder muscle enthusiast have swapped out your LS3 or LSA or LS7 for a four banger?

You could save gas you know, by taking the V8 out of your SS or ZL1 and putting in the 4 cylinder from the Chevy Spark! -- we're talking 84hp and 83fp of torque

That beast gets 38mpg! This is what you get for your money! You want 38 mpg? Swap that sucker in your SS and send me your LS3! You won't be disappointed if all you want is looks and gas mileage.

Ok so Al says he'll fight for every HP and he won't follow Ford. But did he say anywhere in there "as long as I'm chief engineer there WILL NOT be a 4 cylinder"????? No, he didn't.

Yet you all continue to miss my point. It isn't whether or not there should be a 4 cylinder, it's whether or not there will be due to CAFE.

If Al and GM engineers can come up with a car that meets 37 mpg for the Camaro that isn't a 4 cylinder then more power to them.

But again, why the anger about this? This is an enthusiast site. I'd frankly love it if every car had huge V8 engine. But that isn't the world we live in now and if any of you lived in the heyday of the 60's and 70's it wasn't the world then. Not every car has a V8 because not everyone wants a V8. Wasn't the case then and isn't the case now. Please oh PLEASE do a history review and determine what "American Muscle" is. Camaros, Chevelles, Monte Carlos, Firbirds, LeMans, all had non-V8 engines. The muscle came from not just V8s, but huge honking Big Block V8s. I don't here anyone here in this thread saying they would turn dow a Chevelle SS because you could get one with a 155 hp 6 cyclinder. Why do you give one thought to the impact of whether there is a 4 cylinder in the car or not as long as you can still get a V8? Is the new CTS a crap car because you can get a 2.0T as well? Didn't hear anything that kept if from COTY. And will it make a V with an LT1 (or better) any less of a beast? No it won't, not at all, won't keep me from wanting one any less.

Let's name all of the cars GM has in NA that you can order a V8 in.

Camaro (LS3, L99, LSA, LS7)
SS (LS3)
CTS (LSA and we'll see what the new CTS-V brings)
Corvette (LT1, ?? find out in a couple of weeks Z06)

All told those are less than 100,000 V8s. Doesn't seem like a very big market for V8 cars. If you go outside of the US market, there are no V8 powered Opels which are all FWD. The only car in the ROTW with a V8 is either Commodore or Statesman based

What enables that to be cost effective are where the V8 engines really go and that is trucks. Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon alone add up to the V8s in all the cars combined. So as long as you have trucks, you will have V8s. GM has made that clear internally and externally.

So as they say, "don't shoot the messenger".

CAFE is serious business and having been there and done that I can assure you that regardless of Al's quote, CAFE is a HUGE part of every discussion on every single car program GM does. Even the impact of the ZL1 and Z/28 were discussed relative to the impact. It matters.

2nd as long as you can get a ZL1 and a Z/28 you shouldn't give a rats back side what the base car has.

Third there has already been a 4 cylinder in the Camaro.........and it was at least considered for the Gen5. Doesn't change my opinion on the Camaro one bit. I'm just sad that for some reason for many of you it seems to.

So here are my points.

1 - CAFE has impacted the Camaro we have today as has the GG Tax. It is why we have CAGS and why we have DOD. Those are not opinions they are simple facts.

2 - CAFE will impact the Camaro in the future. No matter what you think the market is for a Hybrid or 4 cylinder Camaro those have to be considered. If you can't sell a CAFE compliant Camaro you will not have the choice of ZL1 or Z/28. It's that simple. Again not opinion, simply fact.

3 - A 4 cylinder in the Camaro has ZERO to do with how great a car the Camaro is or will be in the future. And that gentlemen IS an opinion.

Keep in mind, and I'm going by memory which is very dangerous, the Camaro died in the early 2000's not because the V8s didn't sell. V8 volumes held pretty well right up to the end. It was simply that the base car and V6 volumes tanked. You have to have significant volumes to support the business case. In that case it failed. GM and Fbodfather will do everything they can to not repeat this history.

I remember sitting in a conference room many years ago (late 90s) that had line (packaging layouts) for the new Camaro to replace the Gen4. But strangely it also had a line drawing of a sedan that they could make off of that same architecture. What lived out of the that was the 2002 Cadillac CTS. The F-body replacement never came to be.

If all the Camaro ends up being is a V8 powered car, it will die. GM does not have the money to devote to a low volume sports car (Corvette) and another low volume 2+2 (Camaro). The Camaro has and will always stand on how good the base car is. If it sucks, the car dies. That may be close to an opinion, but I can give you historical case after another including the Camaro that support that statement.

This was a pretty good thread until the anger started showing. Just for the life of me, I can't figure out where that comes from.

Not exactly. I said I may not want one (I guess I could change my mind at some point) but I didn't say I didn't think they would sell. I think they could be popular.

A four cylinder Camaro? I won't buy one, but I think it would be great if they call the option package the Iron Duke. (the 2.5L 4 cyl offered in the 3rd gens was called the Iron Duke).

I don't have a problem with it, but it's trying to make an impractical car practical by giving it a small engine. GM thinks they'll attract people they normally wouldn't attract, and since the 6th gen will be on the ATS platform, they don't have to re-engineer anything to make it work.

I don't think it'll attract the audience they want to attract though...The trunk will probably still be too small to do anything with, and the back seat will probably only still fit anyone over the size of a toddler if you chop of their legs, so the car will never be practical.

Besides that, kids these days don't like cars for some reason. Anyone seen that video with the kid from Popular Science. Frickin pu55y wants to sit in the back of something while the car drives itself, because it's "safer." That's what these morons want, and making a 6th Gen a 4 cyl isn't going to sway these guys.

Is that supposed to be a joke? There is a lot wrong going on with that statement.

First off nobody in their right mind that wanted a V8 in the first place and bought it is going to swap that engine with a 4 cylinder. The ones that want the 4 cylinder in the first place will get one. Your example is just silly.

Next, you quote HP and TQ numbers from a econo car. You'd need to at least triple or even quadruple those numbers to get to the actual power output of the engines we are actually discussing, so again...silly.

I can accept the fact that not everyone wants a 4 cylinder, or even 6 cylinder pony car. I get it...thats fine. I'd rather have the V8 too or whatever the top dog engine is if money is no object...even if its a turbo V6...doesn't matter to me. Anyways.....

But what I can also accept is the fact that the turbo 4 engine is a good compromise (or maybe better word would be "balance") of power and economy for those that don't have your ALL OR NOTHING mentality, and want a car that has BOTH good performance and good economy.

Now why can't you accept that? Your answer must be more than just "me no like 4 cylinder cars". Give us a real answer here....why do you feel we are all going to be worse off because of it? As long as they continue to offer us a variety of engine choices...how do we lose? Now, if in the next, next generation of pony cars they don't offer a V8 at all, or only offer it in the $50 - 60K or more version then you have yourself a good argument.

4cyl? it depends on if its auto or stick and if it qualifies for a wave.

/thread

One, I WAS mostly joking. That's this thing called SARCASM. You should recognize it. You use it a lot.

Two. You make the assumption (I guess no one else is allowed to). That after Cafe rules eviscerate muscle cars that there will still be V8's available.

I'm not so sure. I think they could easily legislate or regulate them out of existence. One way is to make regulations charging people for cylinders over 4. (No one would do that--sorry sarcasm again). The other is by raising the mpg standards until only plastic 4 cylinder hybrids and electric cars can pass it.

They might just "nudge " you a little, then a little more until there are none.

You ask "why do you care if the V8 is still offered? Because the base, and the next car may be the only affordable ones and the V8 may be in the Z/28 or higher range.

When most Camaro's are chevy sparks maybe the SS is near 100 grand!

Next you say the engine I mentioned is not as powerful as the 4 banger you want? Well that FI engine you are talking about burns gas! Does it get over 38mpg? Those standards are gonna go up to the 50's in a few years so it's gonna need to be a Prius.

No need to bad mouth the spark! It gets the gas milage you are asking for, supercharged and turboed 4 bangers burn more!