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-   -   Preview of the Gen-6 SS Engine? (https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283040)

LOWDOWN 03-15-2013 02:54 PM

Preview of the Gen-6 SS Engine?
 
With today's chat about an entry-level 5.3L Vette, does this news portend the base engine for the lighter Alpha-based Gen-6 Camaro SS? With a Gen-6 Camaro Z/28 housing the LT1?

http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#axzz2NXtkOnqh

Or, will it be the other way around?!

Stay tuned...

Mr. Wyndham 03-15-2013 05:28 PM

"Base", as in less expensive?

Is there any money to really be saved by building a smaller-displacement version of, technically, the same engine? They'll have many similar parts...

I maintain the base Corvette engine and the Camaro V8 will be the same, as it is now, and has been in the past. Easy, smart way to save $$ through economies of scale...and it sounds as though this sub-Stingray Corvette has been debunked by everyone except these sources who are only "familiar with the plans"...:iono:

If there's a super Z28 in the gen 6...my crystal ball bets are on it sharing an engine with the future Z06...

Bhobbs 03-15-2013 05:31 PM

"I would hate to dilute the reputation of the Corvette" is how a lot of owners would feel if the top tier Vette motors made their way into "lesser" cars, like a Z/28.

Forty5th 03-15-2013 06:06 PM

Agree with the Mr... 6th gen SS likely gets the new LT1 but w/ less power than a :stingray:

Mr Twisty 03-15-2013 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 6290959)
"I would hate to dilute the reputation of the Corvette" is how a lot of owners would feel if the top tier Vette motors made their way into "lesser" cars, like a Z/28.

I think the LS9 is the first motor in (the Camaro) history that didn't make it into a Camaro.

[edit] the 90's ZL1 had the LT5, that I know of, only one Camaro was built with that motor.

Anyways, it happened a lot more often than not.

Mr. iNCREDIBLE 03-15-2013 06:20 PM

a 5.3L truck motor in a 'Vette. ew...


ok it might not be the actual truck motor, but seeing as GM has only used that 5.3L in trucks and FWD cars it will likely not be very accepted by the 'Vette crowd..

Wizard1183 03-15-2013 06:22 PM

With the SS having a 5.3L, it should be cheaper than an LS3 powered camaro, but ill bet it it'll cost at the very least, the same if not more.

Bhobbs 03-15-2013 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Twisty (Post 6291146)
I think the LS9 is the first motor in (the Camaro) history that didn't make it into a Camaro.

[edit] the 90's ZL1 had the LT5, that I know of, only one Camaro was built with that motor.

Anyways, it happened a lot more often than not.

Don't forget the LS7, LS6, LT5 and LT4. There were aftermarket LT4 Camaros but I'm talking factory. The LT1, LS1 and LS3 are the Corvette engines that made it in and those were base Corvette engines.

PYROLYSIS 03-15-2013 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhobbs (Post 6291181)
Don't forget the LS7, LS6, LT5 and LT4. There were aftermarket LT4 Camaros but I'm talking factory. The LT1, LS1 and LS3 are the Corvette engines that made it in and those were base Corvette engines.

There were factory LT4 Camaros. I've seen a 97 30th anniversary SS that had one online.

PYROLYSIS 03-15-2013 08:14 PM

^Did some more reading to brush up on my fourth gen history. There were 108 30th anniversary SS's built with an LT4. They were modified by SLP but were a factory option.

LOWDOWN 03-16-2013 12:47 PM

All this "5.3 truck engine" stuff does NOT translate to a direct drop-in in either the Vette or Camaro.

- Think "car cam, intake, exhaust and a-l-l the other improvements inherent in the Gen-5 SBC", going forward.

- Think "327 cu. in." which powered similarly-weighted (to the coming C-7 Vette) C-1/C2/C-3 Vettes right into our conscious "lust zones".

- Think roughly "current power-to-weight"...which should equal great performance combined with great mpg, a necessary component to any business case.

- Or...would you rather have a hair-dryed V6?!

"Cost of manufacture" seldom/never is a guarantee of "selling price". What IS a guarantee is, with mandated systems, necessary fuel economy regulations, and supposed weight decreases inherent in next-Gen vehicles partially due to more expensive high-tech materiale, the only way to keep MSRP under some constraint is to "give" on some things. A 35-3600 lb Gen-6 Camaro SS will NOT "need" 450+ hp. Under 400 will deliver performance a Gen-5 Camaro owner will be able to accept, and retain their perma-grin. Detuning a 6.2 to less than 400 is simply dumb (or directly using the dreaded TRUCK version!) and would not adequately address the mpg situation. A 5.3 will...

Or would y'all prefer a V6 SS instead?

Bhobbs 03-16-2013 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PYROLYSIS (Post 6291489)
^Did some more reading to brush up on my fourth gen history. There were 108 30th anniversary SS's built with an LT4. They were modified by SLP but were a factory option.

I understand that but what I'm saying is, in recent history, only base Corvette engines have made their way into a regular production Camaro model.

mikeSS 03-16-2013 04:32 PM

i heard a few weeks ago about this. i heard the 5.3L engine is less powerful than the Ls3. which is kind of sad...

meissen 03-16-2013 05:30 PM

I'm really surprised at the news about a "base" Corvette... My understanding was that they were calling the C7 the Stingray because they wanted everyone to feel like they were getting that "upgraded" model. If they wanted a base then they should have had just a Corvette, and then the Corvette Stingray as an upgraded model. Doesn't make sense and contradicts what they were saying when the C7 was unveiled.

The_Blur 03-16-2013 07:44 PM

I strongly doubt that this will happen.

PYROLYSIS 03-16-2013 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Blur (Post 6294698)
I strongly doubt that this will happen.

The base Corvette or the 5.3L making its way into a 6th gen Camaro?

CAP'N B 03-16-2013 09:30 PM

Y'all talk about the 5.3 like it's a piece of trash but the COPO Camaro only comes with 2 engines, supercharged 5.3 and LS7. Don't forget about the ZL1 engines in the Camaro there were a few of them and I think the L88 427 made it into a few Camaro's also

Bhobbs 03-16-2013 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP'N B (Post 6295072)
Y'all talk about the 5.3 like it's a piece of trash but the COPO Camaro only comes with 2 engines, supercharged 5.3 and LS7. Don't forget about the ZL1 engines in the Camaro there were a few of them and I think the L88 427 made it into a few Camaro's also

COPO engines are a completely different animal than production motors.

gmen09 03-16-2013 11:13 PM

I think it might not be a bad idea, I mean it's a 327, depending on the internals a nice "smaller" displacement v8 that can rev might be something that hits market that the lt1 may miss.

NASTY99Z28 03-17-2013 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeSS (Post 6294084)
i heard a few weeks ago about this. i heard the 5.3L engine is less powerful than the Ls3. which is kind of sad...

Really I think a 5.3 thats roughly 375hp is pretty impressive compared to the outgoing 5.3 and we all know how well they responded to mods so I would place judgement just yet.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP'N B (Post 6295072)
Y'all talk about the 5.3 like it's a piece of trash but the COPO Camaro only comes with 2 engines, supercharged 5.3 and LS7. Don't forget about the ZL1 engines in the Camaro there were a few of them and I think the L88 427 made it into a few Camaro's also

The 5.3 in the COPO is a lsx block that's a big bore/small stroke as where the truck 5.3 is a small bore/long strong and is limited to smaller valves.
Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN (Post 6293431)
All this "5.3 truck engine" stuff does NOT translate to a direct drop-in in either the Vette or Camaro.

- Think "car cam, intake, exhaust and a-l-l the other improvements inherent in the Gen-5 SBC", going forward.

- Think "327 cu. in." which powered similarly-weighted (to the coming C-7 Vette) C-1/C2/C-3 Vettes right into our conscious "lust zones".

- Think roughly "current power-to-weight"...which should equal great performance combined with great mpg, a necessary component to any business case.

- Or...would you rather have a hair-dryed V6?!

"Cost of manufacture" seldom/never is a guarantee of "selling price". What IS a guarantee is, with mandated systems, necessary fuel economy regulations, and supposed weight decreases inherent in next-Gen vehicles partially due to more expensive high-tech materiale, the only way to keep MSRP under some constraint is to "give" on some things. A 35-3600 lb Gen-6 Camaro SS will NOT "need" 450+ hp. Under 400 will deliver performance a Gen-5 Camaro owner will be able to accept, and retain their perma-grin. Detuning a 6.2 to less than 400 is simply dumb (or directly using the dreaded TRUCK version!) and would not adequately address the mpg situation. A 5.3 will...

Or would y'all prefer a V6 SS instead?

I would rather have a 5.3 over a tt v6 soley based on the sound that comes with it in a car like the corvette but the car did start life with a inline 6 so a "tt blue flame 6" could be cool to. Also I think that the amount of vette drivers turned of by the "lesser" 5.3 v8 would pale in comparison to the people that could now afford a vette if it comes at a lower price point.:thumbsup:

redleader 03-17-2013 04:19 AM

I never understand why a 3.6 doesn't get near twice the MPG of a 6.2. Hopefully the new Gen will ?

toehead93 03-17-2013 11:06 AM

I think the 5.3 in the Camaro is the worst idea I have ever heard. A twin turbo V6 would be so much better, let the NA guys have the LT1 and give the FI guys a TT engine. Although Dodge did it successfully with the RT and SRT lineups. I guess it isnt the worse thing afterall but I still prefer a TT to mod the hell out of easily.

KMPrenger 03-17-2013 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redleader (Post 6295817)
I never understand why a 3.6 doesn't get near twice the MPG of a 6.2. Hopefully the new Gen will ?

Are you serious?

There are 4 cylinder cars that don't get twice the highway mileage of the SS and especially the Vette. Gas mileage doesn't directly correlate to the size of the engine. If you feel it does you have much learning to do my friend.

As for the talk of this 5.3...I don't understand some of the comments here.

First off let me say that I'm not at all convinced the 5.3 will make its way into the Vette OR Camaro.

But lets say it does. Take a look at the Ford 5.0 V8. In truck form, the 2011 model made 360 HP, and that same year it made 412HP in the Mustang. So if Chevy does the same, I don't see why we couldn't have a 375 horse truck version and a 420HP version in the next gen Camaro. It uses much of the same direct injection tech that the current V6 uses, and the LT1 uses, and they both have nice flat wide torque curves....so I'm guessing the 5.3 does as well.

I'd love to see the LT1 in the next Camaro, but I have no doubts that a properly factory tuned 5.3 in the ligher next gen Camaro couldn't stomp on the current 6.2 in this gen.

redleader 03-17-2013 12:54 PM

I'm just niave :-(
Thanks for the Xtra info.

SROD 03-17-2013 01:24 PM

Cant wait to find out

KMPrenger 03-17-2013 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redleader (Post 6296741)
I'm just niave :-(
Thanks for the Xtra info.

No problem....sorry if it came out as bashing. Not my intent, but you lurk around here for very long and you will learn a lot!

Mikes SS 03-17-2013 03:13 PM

I am definitely thinking the 5.3L DI would outperform the current LS3 with all the tech it will have in it..stop thinking of it as "only a truck motor" it is completely redesigned and the LT1 has been compared to the LS7, the DI most certainly plays a factor in this and torque rating should not suffer due to lower displacement size!

Mr. Wyndham 03-17-2013 03:21 PM

I've got to point out.....I just had chills. Reading through....re-reading out of curiosity....I had this flashback of a 2008 thread.

We were discussing - almost identically as we are right now - how Chevy should put the L76 (361hp) from the then-current G8 GT into the base V8 car, and the LS2 (400hp) into the upper-trim.....

Instead, we got an LS3 for "cheap", and an LSA in our upper-V8 trim. :laugh: I'm hoping history repeats itself!!

My only problem with this concept of a base model 5.3L is cost...it won't be any cheaper to produce a 5.3L than the LT1...not if we're assuming it uses all the same tech.

LOWDOWN 03-17-2013 03:57 PM

Different times...in '08 we weren't staring 35.5 mpg mandate in the face, and now we are.

400 hp L99/3900 Curb Weight = 9.75 lb/hp
426 hp LS3/3900 Curb Weight = 9.15 lb/hp
375 hp 5.3/3600 Curb Weight = 9.60 lb/hp
385 hp 5.3/3600 Curb Weight = 9.35 lb/hp...and a "sport-tuned" DI 5.3 can readily (and warrantably) make this number.
385 hp 5.3/3500 Curb Weight = 9.09 lb/hp

As to cost, a current 4.8 V8 truck motor costs how much less to build than a current 5.3 truck motor? But how much MORE is the 5.3? And a current 6.2 truck engine probably costs only a few bucks more to manufacture, but "retails" for considerably more, "because we can"...

As women all over the world will confirm, "size isn't everything"...but it seems that the bigger the engine, the more 'spensive it is. It is known that the 3.6 DOES cost more to make than a (current) 4.8/5.3 BEFORE a turbo or two, yet prices for less...hmmm. And those are the only two ways to get mid/upper 3's, hp-wise, for what needs to be a current-world-sensitive mid-horse Gen-6...

IMVHO

KMPrenger 03-17-2013 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 6297198)
..
My only problem with this concept of a base model 5.3L is cost...it won't be any cheaper to produce a 5.3L than the LT1...not if we're assuming it uses all the same tech.

I don't think it would be much cheaper either. I just feel that if the 5.3 becomes the "standard" V8 we can expect it to perform very well and have peak power numbers much better than the truck version.

There is no way in hell the lighter next gen Camaro will be slower....so no matter what engine they decide to use I'm sure it will perform great.

LOWDOWN 03-17-2013 07:41 PM

The LT1 has been announced as making "450+ hp". A 5.3 = .85 of the 6.2's displacement. Simple (?!) math would say a 5.3 built/tuned similarly to the LT1 "should" make at least 385+...perhaps more...with undoubtedly better mpg. considering the coming trannies that will be available, combined with lighter Curb Weight and improved aero considerations.

RLHMARINES 03-17-2013 10:30 PM

Remember GM engineers stated that the choice for a 6.2 liter V8 instead of a 5.3 liter V8, was due to cylinder deactivation staying engaged longer with the larger V8 and getting better fuel economy as opposed to the smaller V8 engines that was tested. So, if it's truly the best choice for the Corvette, it must still hold true for Camaro with its higher curb weight.

ChevyCowboy 03-18-2013 12:55 AM

I find it entertaing how alot of guys in here think even the ls 5.3 is a peice of garbage in comparison to the ls3, yeah it might not make as much hp and torque stock but really how many guys keep there engines stock? Dont underestimate its potential. I come from a performance trucks background, theres lots of guys getting retarded amounts of hp and tq reliably from the 5.3 that alot of guys could only dream of getting out of there 6.2's, dont get me wrong saying the 6.2 is an inferior engine because thats not the case, the saying "theres no replacement for displacement" stands true even here. But if anything you guys should be excited about the thoughts/plans/rumours of a LT1 5.3 making its way into the 6th gen camaro, because like the ls5.3 Im sure itll have crazy potential! I know I am excited for it!

fielderLS3 03-18-2013 01:10 AM

Unless Ford downsizes the 5.0 (which will likely add direct injection and other small improvements for 2015) to something smaller, I don't see the Camaro SS ending up with a 5.3L engine instead of the 6.2. I'd predict anything with less than the current LS3's 426hp is going to be DOA in the planning room for the 6th-gen SS...unless some kind of low cost "stripper" SS becomes available at a lower price point than the current 1SS, which seems unlikely.

CAP'N B 03-18-2013 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMPrenger (Post 6296571)
Are you serious?

There are 4 cylinder cars that don't get twice the highway mileage of the SS and especially the Vette. Gas mileage doesn't directly correlate to the size of the engine. If you feel it does you have much learning to do my friend.

As for the talk of this 5.3...I don't understand some of the comments here.

First off let me say that I'm not at all convinced the 5.3 will make its way into the Vette OR Camaro.

But lets say it does. Take a look at the Ford 5.0 V8. In truck form, the 2011 model made 360 HP, and that same year it made 412HP in the Mustang. So if Chevy does the same, I don't see why we couldn't have a 375 horse truck version and a 420HP version in the next gen Camaro. It uses much of the same direct injection tech that the current V6 uses, and the LT1 uses, and they both have nice flat wide torque curves....so I'm guessing the 5.3 does as well.

I'd love to see the LT1 in the next Camaro, but I have no doubts that a properly factory tuned 5.3 in the ligher next gen Camaro couldn't stomp on the current 6.2 in this gen.

Thank you you made my point perfectly.

lbls1 03-18-2013 08:09 AM

Its going to be difficult for the domestic car makers (or any car manufacturer selling cars in the US) to maintain any number of engines that go against the upcoming fleet average of 35 mpg. For the cars that do not meet the requirement, a company will have to buffer them with the majority of the fleet that can meet or exceed the 35mpg benchmark. This fact will dictate that all engine offerings will need to be more fuel efficient, and as the mpg requirement becomes more stringent (by the next decade), IMO it is almost a certainty that the engines will have to be smaller and more fuel efficient. In a nutshell......the future v8s that are left may be smaller than what's being offered now.

CAP'N B 03-18-2013 08:24 AM

Think of this, with direct injection there is no potential for detonation, a diesel engine has no spark plugs, it uses high compression to produce heat high enough to burn diesel fuel. You can throw a match in a bucket of diesel and it will go out. Gas explodes. So a high compression gas engine with direct injection could possibly do away with spark plugs. Superchargers and turbos are the future, and so are Over Head Cam engines GM needs to step it up a notch or 2 and get rid of the dinosaur pushrod engines.

meissen 03-18-2013 09:42 AM

Dinosaur pushrod engines? Dear god... Go buy a BMW or get educated... :facepalm:

ChevyCowboy 03-18-2013 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP'N B (Post 6299887)
Think of this, with direct injection there is no potential for detonation, a diesel engine has no spark plugs, it uses high compression to produce heat high enough to burn diesel fuel. You can throw a match in a bucket of diesel and it will go out. Gas explodes. So a high compression gas engine with direct injection could possibly do away with spark plugs. Superchargers and turbos are the future, and so are Over Head Cam engines GM needs to step it up a notch or 2 and get rid of the dinosaur pushrod engines.

Dinosaur pushrod engine? you really have no clue what amazing things gm is accomplishing with the pushrod v8 do you? With overhead cam engine you have to rev them out to get any performance at all. Overhead cam engines are actually an older design then a pushrod v8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meissen (Post 6300152)
Dinosaur pushrod engines? Dear god... Go buy a BMW or get educated... :facepalm:

Couldnt have said it better

CAP'N B 03-18-2013 11:34 AM

(QUOTE) You really have no clue what amazing things gm is accomplishing with the pushrod v8 do you? (A) Yes I do, I was born in 1961, I think I came before the V8.

(QUOTE) With overhead cam engine you have to rev them out to get any performance at all. (A)This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, it's the same thing as a cam in block. The cam HAS to turn in conjunction with the crankshaft. The placement and the amount of cams is different, the drive is the same. Just a bit more expensive.

(Quote)Go buy a BMW or get educated... :facepalm: (A) Not only foreign cars have OHC I'm, sure there are a few floating around GM, FORD, DODGE already. I need to get educated???? 1 of you is 24 and the other is 26, I was taking apart gas and diesel engines when you were still a lump in your dad's pants.

Ok maybe not a dinosaur, I was born before the V8 so I may be considered a dinosaur LOL.

The pushrod is a weak link, the lifters are a weak link and the valve train instability probably cause more total engine failures than probably any other failure. The OHC engine lends itself to better valve train stability and higher performance, higher revving engines. OHC design is a bit more expensive. But you spend money anyway to make your engines more powerful.

What about the possibility of doing away with spark plugs. Nothing at all was commented on that.

People feel the same about carburetors and fuel injection. Some embrace different technology some don't.


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