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-   2016+ Camaro: 6th Gen Camaro general forum (https://www.camaro6.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=155)
-   -   No more V8 for 6th gen Camaro? (https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267913)

Captain Awesome 01-12-2013 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garfin (Post 6024537)
Big joke... in reality, that proportion was reversed, based on the unexpected demand for the SS! The good news was that the V8 car was significantly more profitable for GM than the V6.
Has anyone else sort of connected the dots here and figured out how a car equipped essentially the same except for the engine and transmittion can have a price difference of $6000?

Go look at the 1LT and 1SS pricing and explain to me where that $6000 went? This is with the 2013 fuel economy standards in place. What do you think will happen when we double them in 12 years?

So, yes, there will be a V8 in the near term future for the camaro. But anyone who believes they will be made in volume and will be affordable is simply deluded. Common sense and a little math are all it takes to understand that the V8 Camaro will one day become the plaything of the elite, connected class.

Captain Awesome 01-12-2013 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntgome1 (Post 6026079)
I have been trying to ignore this topic for a minute now. I can no longer keep my feelings bottled up. Simply put if the Camaro gets rid of the V8 im gonna whip someones @$$....
What will you do if they keep making a V8 but you can't get one because you either cannot afford one, are not a pop culture icon, are not a current or former elected official, or do not publish a popular car review magazine/blog?

Will you be happy that they still make a V8, when you can't have one?

mntgome1 01-12-2013 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome (Post 6026415)
Has anyone else sort of connected the dots here and figured out how a car equipped essentially the same except for the engine and transmittion can have a price difference of $6000?

Go look at the 1LT and 1SS pricing and explain to me where that $6000 went? This is with the 2013 fuel economy standards in place. What do you think will happen when we double them in 12 years?

So, yes, there will be a V8 in the near term future for the camaro. But anyone who believes they will be made in volume and will be affordable is simply deluded. Common sense and a little math are all it takes to understand that the V8 Camaro will one day become the plaything of the elite, connected class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome (Post 6026424)
What will you do if they keep making a V8 but you can't get one because you either cannot afford one, are not a pop culture icon, are not a current or former elected official, or do not publish a popular car review magazine/blog?

Will you be happy that they still make a V8, when you can't have one?
Really dude.....

ALLTRBO 01-12-2013 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garfin (Post 6024537)

... I remember the early predictions made by Chevy with respect to the mix of V6 vs. V8 cars before the 5th Gen car came to market. Chevy was banking on a production mix of 80% V6 and 20% V8 cars. Big joke... in reality, that proportion was reversed, based on the unexpected demand for the SS! ...

... Again, given the new fuel economy requirements coming down the road, GM cannot afford to have that kind of imbalance between the V6 and V8 cars again ...

... The clear choice among Camaro enthusiasts looks to be the V8...
What you say was true... initially. I can't seem to find the numbers right now, but I recall seeing somewhere that the V6 sales far surpassed the V8 sales quite some time ago. The initial demand was for the SS, but once all of the "early adopters", which were largely enthusiasts, got ahold of their SS's, the V6 sales percentage grew substantially. That largely invalidates your argument.

MrGs SS 01-12-2013 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrocket (Post 5964689)
I found something that really was a WTF ? moment while cleaning out an old house...a 1979 Popular Mechanics magazine that had an ad for a Ford Fiesta econobox that was advertized to get 55 mpg ! So 33yrs ago they could get better milage than today,of course that had to be smog legislated to death (Thanks Cali)and the new Fiesta gets no where near 55 mpg !
Neither did the 79.. lol unless free falling off a cliff counts..

KMPrenger 01-12-2013 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garfin (Post 6024537)
Key word = "affordable".

Yes... no doubt the V8 Camaro will carry on thru the the 6th Gen car.

However, given impending CAFE standards Chevrolet will simply need to find a way to curtail sales of V8 cars.

I remember the early predictions made by Chevy with respect to the mix of V6 vs. V8 cars before the 5th Gen car came to market. Chevy was banking on a production mix of 80% V6 and 20% V8 cars. Big joke... in reality, that proportion was reversed, based on the unexpected demand for the SS! The good news was that the V8 car was significantly more profitable for GM than the V6. (so let's leave well enough alone!) The bad news is that CAFE numbers took a hit as a result. Again, given the new fuel economy requirements coming down the road, GM cannot afford to have that kind of imbalance between the V6 and V8 cars again.
V8 sales will need to be limited in order to meet the new requirements - and as has already been demonstrated, Chevy cannot depend on consumer demand to strike a balance in order to meet requirements. The clear choice among Camaro enthusiasts looks to be the V8.

The easiest way to limit the number of V8s on the road is to make them less attainable by making them more expensive. My prediction is that the V8 Camaro will live on in the 6th Gen car, but those of us who want (need) a V8 will have to dig a lot deeper into our pockets to get one.

Best regards,

Elie
V6 sales have been much higher than V8 sales for a very long time now....since about mid to 3/4 the way through the 2010 model year.

Captain Awesome 01-12-2013 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntgome1 (Post 6026699)
Really dude.....
Give me your email so in 12 years I can write you and gloat that "I told you so".

Captain Awesome 01-12-2013 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger (Post 6027008)
V6 sales have been much higher than V8 sales for a very long time now....since about mid to 3/4 the way through the 2010 model year.
Doesn't that sort of prove the point that they already intentionally have jacked up the price of the V8 to levels that discourage the majority of sales?

Can anyone help disprove this "crackpot" theory?

If you can explain the $6K price difference between the 2 models another way, then please do so. Otherwise, it is pretty obvious that V8's will be reserved for the fat-cats. I had a hard time justifying the $6K at the time I bought mine, and I'm sure it already puts the current V8 out of the reach of many potential customers.

Have you ever heard of "Ockham's Razor"? It applies to these situations.



"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''

buckeyemike 01-12-2013 05:08 PM
THIS IS MURICA THEY CANT TAKE MAH VEE ATE AWAY!!!

Russell James 01-12-2013 06:28 PM
Give me a 6th Gen, big V8, no AFM on the manual trans.... and I'll buy a new one every two years. Not a fan of direct injections, but I guess I could live with it if they work out the problems.

I'd really rather just have a 6th gen with a 427, no AFM, no direct injection, 6 spd manual with 3.91s and current SS gearing, stronger driveline from the clutch to the axles... stick a 12 bolt carrier inside a stronger alum diff housing (ala hammerhead), ditch the rubber doughnuts in the driveshaft. All in a body like a '69 Z28 that has been dechromed/slammed/pro toured. Yes, it wouldn't have the greatest mileage. I'll pay the government their gas guzzler money grab.

mickss 01-12-2013 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome (Post 6027054)
Doesn't that sort of prove the point that they already intentionally have jacked up the price of the V8 to levels that discourage the majority of sales?

Can anyone help disprove this "crackpot" theory?

If you can explain the $6K price difference between the 2 models another way, then please do so. Otherwise, it is pretty obvious that V8's will be reserved for the fat-cats. I had a hard time justifying the $6K at the time I bought mine, and I'm sure it already puts the current V8 out of the reach of many potential customers.

Have you ever heard of "Ockham's Razor"? It applies to these situations.



"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''
Why is there $6,000 price difference between a SS V8 and a Lt V6? This is almost too easy! Let`s start in the front and work back.

Things that cost more to make an SS Vs an Lt model;
The front fascia (probably cost more) with factory spoiler.
The radiator.
The engine.
The transmissions(auto&manual)
The differential.
The suspension
The exhaust system.
Four wheel Brembo disc brakes.
20'' staggered wheels with premium Pirelli tires.

There`s probably a few trim items and other things I left out but that was some of the more major items I could think of right off the top of my head.

You really didn`t give it that much thought did you.

wildpaws 01-12-2013 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome (Post 6020032)
if you dig into the writing of these people, you will see they actually don't even want us driving volts and eco cars. The endgame is to make personal cars so cost prohibitive that everyone moves to dense cities with public transportation. They deride people who live in the suburbs and commute.
I hear you! I'm all for getting rid of the EPA, government and government regulators that continue to take our choices and personal freedoms from us. The big issue is that the majotity of the American public has no concept of what is happening, or they support it or there are some who are just too ignorant to realize anything.

Captain Awesome 01-12-2013 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickss (Post 6027729)
Why is there $6,000 price difference between a SS V8 and a Lt V6? This is almost too easy! Let`s start in the front and work back.
You're kidding, right???

Quote:
The front fascia (probably cost more) with factory spoiler."
The radiator.
The engine.
The transmissions(auto&manual)
The differential.
The suspension
The exhaust system.
Four wheel Brembo disc brakes.
20'' staggered wheels with premium Pirelli tires.
So you throw up these examples and provide ABSOLUTELY ZERO documentation to back them up as "proof" justifying the price difference between the two. You even say "probably cost more", indicating that you have NO IDEA what they cost. Even using "probably" indicates that the cost difference is slight even in your misguided mind.

Here's the MSRP for the SS and LT Radiators:

$337.85 - SS
$322.77 - LT

That's $15.18 difference in RETAIL price!

Here's the MSRP for the SS and LT Engines:
$4,438.89 - SS
$4,391.67 - LT

This amounts to a $47.22 difference in RETAIL price.

I could go on and on, but you're not going to listen. You are also likely falling into the trap of thinking that as a consumer you pay a ton of money to get a set of brembo brakes, therefore GM must also be paying that same price, which they obviously do not.

Most of the parts on your list (radiator, exhaust, suspension, differential) are essentially identical between the SS and LT models, with the LT versions being slightly smaller or less robust. They are typically manufactured using the same methods and machines and take the same time to build, so the cost to GM to make an SS version amounts to a few ounces of raw metal ore. Not a big difference.

Quote:
You really didn`t give it that much thought did you.
What thinking I put into my comment is apparently an order of magnitude more than that which went into your answer.

Captain Awesome 01-13-2013 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws (Post 6027915)
I hear you! I'm all for getting rid of the EPA, government and government regulators that continue to take our choices and personal freedoms from us. The big issue is that the majotity of the American public has no concept of what is happening, or they support it or there are some who are just too ignorant to realize anything.
I just wish someone could explain to me why we have these CAFE standards now. They are obsolete. They were introduced in the 1970's to help reduce the amount the US relied on foreign oil, as a response to the OPEC embargo.

Since the percentage of oil we import was 20% then and is 60% now, the CAFE standards have clearly proven to be another spectacular success story of regulatory actions! (Right up there with the war on poverty, which has increased in spite of trillions of dollars thrown at it).

CAFE has outlived its usefulness, and we must progress past these outdated documents from bygone eras. The people who wrote CAFE could not possibly know that in 4 decades we would have Hybrids, and Direct Injection, and the Internet. Obviously, they were a bunch of backwards old guys with thick glasses, funny suits, and odd hairstyles who could not possibly know how to write a regulation for the modern era.

We need to move forward past CAFE, and make sure that everyone who wants a V8 Camaro will be able to purchase one at a reasonable price. The biggest crime would be to deny the average Camaro enthusiast the ability to purchase and enjoy the Camaro he/she wants with whatever engine they prefer.


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