Could the 6th Gen get the Caddy 3.6L Twin Turbo V6?
 

I was reading my new Motor Trend and saw that Cadillac has the new GM twin turbo 3.6L V6 available in some of their 2014 models. It is rated at an SAE-certified 420 horsepower (313 kW) and 430 lb.-ft. of torque (583 Nm). It is the most powerful V-6 ever from General Motors.

Could this be a good candidate for the 6th Gen Camaro?:popcorn:

Here's my thoughts: No and Yes.

I'm really thinking that GM will keep the TT 3.6 exclusive to Cadillac (at least for the duration of the first ATS generation and third gen CTS), I wouldn't rule out a TT V6 in the 7th gen Camaro (assuming a 7th gen happens).

All that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a TT V6 Camaro to slot between the regular V6 and the V8 models. I think it would expand the Camaro market a great deal.

Hope not lol

It might, but thats only 420hp.....you can get a turbo or SC and have 500 plus right now. :thumbsup:

Here's the thing, the LF3 (I think that's the name for it) returns MPG on par or less than the LT1 V8. They produce similar HP numbers as well with the V8 having the slight edge. The V8 is much less complex, which means it costs less, and it is more reliable. With that in mind, I don't see this engine touching the Camaro. Chevy HAS to offer this car with a V8, but they don't have to offer it with a TT V6, since part of their customer base looks for a SB V8. Personally, I think this engine was created to allow similar V8 hp numbers, yet have a more refined engine for the luxury market. A pushrod small block chevy is certainly not refined for a luxury market, so they made the LF3.

Good reasons not to put it in the Camaro....just as good of reasons not to put it in the Cadillac as well, yet here we are. I don't get the refinement angle in the Cadillac. How is a 60 degree V6 smoother and more refined than a V8?

A DOHC V6 is smoother than a pushrod anything. Sit in a V8 Camaro at idle, and then go sit in a Mercedes V6 at idle. There is a complete difference. The Camaro is louder, and it shakes due to the cam. Of course, if you buy a V8 Camaro, you like these things. If you're buying a cadillac, you won't like these things. Caddy is trying to be more European, and it can't do that with a small block.

:word: Well put, totally agree!

Sounds reasonable. The TT would likely be priced as the V8. If I wanted a 6 banger I'd have kept my SGM RS and worked with that insyead of dropping another 20 grand on my SS. For those of us who lived when 4 barrel V8 was common and dirt cheap I might add nothing compars to a crammed up 8 cylinder beast with a deep exhaust note.

I don't think we will see it in the 6th gen either...at least not upon initial release. Maybe sometime down the line.

But it could be awesome. Simple tune and you've got 500HP/500TQ with a very broad TQ range.

I don't fully agree. A V6 is inherently rougher than a V8 all other things the same, pushrod or not. In a V6 luxury car, they just put more into things like engine mounts to insulate the rest of the car from the engine. The engine isn't necessarily smoother, the vibration just doesn't get transmitted as much. And the somewhat shakier idle of a higher performance engine has more to do with the cam profile, not the position of it on the engine. And besides, the LT1's VVT will probably mitigate a lot of the "shake" (to the extent it exists) the LS3 has at idle.

I've experienced a lot of reasonably smooth pushrod engines, while at the same time, there have been some notably rough, unrefined DOHC V6 designs. Either can be made very smooth and refined or not so depending on factors having nothing to do with where their cams are placed.

If GM feels it needs both a V8 and DOHC to be competitive in all its various segments, why not build a DOHC V8 like Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai, Mercedes, and Audi all do. Wouldn't one engine be more cost effective than 2? Don't get me wrong, I love GM's pushrod V8s (as they do have certain advantages over DOHC), but I am still just as happy overall with my DOHC one, too.

Well, GM did make DOHC V8s for many years (i.e., the Northstar line in Cadillacs, as well as a few Oldsmobiles & Buicks). For whatever reasons, the Northstar program was ditched.

Of course, one of the best DOHC V8s that GM ever sold was the one in the 1990ish Corvette ZR1. That engine was assembled by Mercury Marine rather than GM, though.

Bottom line... at this point in time in the GM world, it's a DOHC V6 or a pushrod V8. Take your pick.

With the push toward fuel economy, it wouldn't surprise me if GM never sold another DOHC V8. But who knows...

They did. The Northstar V8 line was an OHC family of engines, but GM cut it in 2010. The point that I'm trying to get across is that if you want to get 400+ HP out of a small block, it won't be as smooth as a DOHC V6 with turbos. Plus, the snobby import drivers wouldn't want to drive around with pushrods under the hood. If you look at the CTS segment, you see that the top models are all powered by turbo 6 cylinders. Caddy followed the rest of the segment, and blew them away with an excellent engine.

Yes, it is inherently hard to balance a 60* V6 than a 90* V8. Luxury car companies just puts a lot of money into reducing the vibrations...money GM is just starting to invest. It will always be more expensive to get the V6 to run as smoothly as the V8, push-rod or not. With new technologies for block casting, piston/rod production, we are seeing some of that cost offset in other areas when there are fewer cylinders. I-6 engines, however, do balance very easily.

Irregardless of the pros and cons of a TTV6 or N/A V8, GM will put a V8 in the Camaro for the simple reason that Camaro owners would rather have a V8 than a 6. It's all about sales. I know 95% of the current V8 owners would rather see a V8. Hell, I'm on my 5th Camaro and I'd go buy a Ford or Dodge with a V8 before I buy a Chevy with a 6!!!

That's my 2 cents.

Well, some Camaro owners would rather have a V8.

Thanks for all of the responses!

I was thinking that this engine could find its way into the Camaro as part of a special package. Maybe it could be a Berlinetta?

There is no benefit to putting the LF3 in the Camaro.

In the global market there is a big benefit to using the LF3. Lower taxes in Europe.

I believe Car and Driver also mentioned the TT V6 may end up in a new version of the Buick Grand National.
Wondering if that would be based on the Alpha platform as well?

Based on a few rumors I've heard, I think GM is indeed considering an Alpha Buick or two. If it does happen, I'd bet on a Grand National sharing platform with the 6th gen and the ATS.

So in other words, it doesn't matter whether the Cadillac engine is better than the Chevy engine or not...what's important is whether it can be marketed with more expensive sounding words or not? Or put another way, luxury car buyers will pay more for not necessarily a better product, but rather for the privilege of paying more just so they can prove that they can pay more?:rolleyes:

I'm being facetious and joking around there, but I think there may be at least some small grain of truth in there somewhere. Reason I got a bit of a laugh out of this is Angus MacKenzie basically said the same thing in his editorial on the last page of MT last month (May 2013 issue for anyone who cares to look it up). Your comment immediately made me think of that.

That statement and the implications behind it was sad for me to read, mostly because I know it is accurate.

Have we really gotten to the point where European tax policy is dictating product engineering and availability here? After fighting a war way back when so we would no longer have to concern ourselves with which direction the European elite decided to fart on any given day, do we once again find ourselves in a position where that affects us? Have we been forced to cede pursing what we want, and instead accept only what an aristocracy an ocean away wants and allows us to have? That the answer may well be "yes" should make us all stop and think.

That's EXACTLY what I was going for :sm0: Angus is great. It is BS that the global market is affecting our market. I can understand why they would do it for economy cars, but keep it away from true American cars.

Nope.

Like many, I won't believe the LF3 will be in a US Camaro until GM announces it.

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I personally don't think GM would ever do this. Main reason being that it would hurt their V8 sales and the HP/TQ numbers would be too close to the SS. Furthermore if someone was looking for that increase in HP why wouldn't they just look to the naturally aspirated V8 anyhow. No offense to the V6 owners but the Camaro is meant to be driven with power; V8 all the way baybay!

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Aren't you contradicting youself there?

I beg to differ but I think based on the estimated LT1 numbers, there's going to be a fairly significant difference between the HP of the LF3 and the 6th gen Camaro LT1. When you consider the slight differences in LS3 output between the Corvette and Camaro now, I'd expect the LT1 in the new Camaro to be rated around 460-465 HP with about 440 TQ. The only real advantage the LF3 should have (over the LT1) is its max torque (430 lb-ft) is available from 3500 RPM. I'd also bet on (if this ever happens) Chevy using a de-tuned LF3 variant that drops the output to something more akin to the L99 (400 HP/410 TQ) if not lower.

If the TT in the Camaro did for the vehicle the same thing the TT did for the V6 in the F150 (EcoBoost), it would have my attention. I traded a V8 F150 for my current F150 with an EcoBoost in it, and the EcoBoost blows away the V8 I had. People focus too much on horsepower numbers. Torque is what's so much fun to feel in a vehicle. And with the TT, you can feel a ton of torque at very low RPMs, and the curve is held high for much longer. All you need with the TT is a good tune to wake up even more power.

I fail to see how you are seeing a contradiction in what I stated even with the bolding. A naturally aspirated V8 making similar HP as the TT V6 is clearly the better choice if not just for the sound alone.

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You said they had similar power, and in the very next sentence you said the Camaro needs the power of a V8. You don't see that as a contradiction?

Also, if you've every had a turbo vehichle then you know you are just one tune away for lots more power. So, if they start out at similar power, then you will get more power per mod buck for the turbo engine.

Finally, when did you even mention sound? V8 sound and a couple of bucks will get you a cup off coffee at Starbucks. You can enjoy that as you watch the tuned TT's tail light disapear into the distance.

Pretty clever coffee story I must admit. It's cute. I have owned a vehicle in the past that had a turbo so I am quite aware of their capabilities. But we aren't talking about aftermarket mods here just factory setup. If I wanted to beat every Joe Shmoe on the road it'd be a V8 forcefed monster not a TT'd V6.

And I was simply stating that the sound factor is just a small reason why a V8 suits a Camaro better or any muscle car for that matter. I've heard plenty of turbocharged V6 Camaros and the sound is like a lawnmower on roids. Not desirable whatsoever.

If I didn't know better I would say you were a V6 owner? Bottom line, GM will never produce a Camaro with that setup, period.

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Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or "incorrect."

-Wikipedia

thank you

Oooh, I wanna play!

Non Sequitur: (Latin for It does not follow) is a conversational and literary device, often used for comedic purposes. It is something said that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what preceded it, seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.

- Wikipedia

Yea what he said. Its to close to V8 power so it would reduce sales. That said i think it would be cool to see a factory TT V6 under the hood. Maybe they can offer the TT V6 and up the V8 power to 500+ HP maybe LS7 standard. Even though the V6 in mine is awsome we cant have a Camaro lineup without a V8 trying to escape out of the hood.

:thumbup:

Which V8? Are you comparing the older 4.6L or 5.4L 2 or 3 valve V8s to the Eco-boost, or the new 5.0L. Because the current 5.0L will blow away the old V8s as well, and has actually been recommended by many over the EcoBoost for people who tow (ie, people who actually use trucks as trucks).

I've driven EcoBoost versions of both the F150 and Explorer, and frankly, I came away as not particularly impressed. Contrary to what many say, I found that they do need to rev just a little to get the turbos spooling, and don't have the same off the line kick way down low as a V8.

For the 90%+ who keep their engines stock, NA will get you more power for less money, with better long term durability.

In light of that argument, let me ask you a couple questions. Why would a V6 Camaro owner not just buy a V6 Camry or Accord that offer similar performance, but with more practicality and better fuel economy? Why would a Camaro SS buyer not buy a 370Z, which offers similar to better overall performance with better fuel economy? After all, that Camaro body and a couple of bucks will get you the same cup of coffee at Starbucks, right?

If you think only numbers on paper, and not subjective, or emotional, or other pleasure/fun factors matter in the Camaro's segment, you do not understand the segment.

That benefits the Europeans, not the Camaro.

Believe you confusing the 6.2 and 5.0. There is absolutely know comparison between the towing ability of the 5.0 and the Ecoboost. Have you not seen the mirad of videos comparing the two? Even towing up a hill the Ecoboost blew the doors of the 5.0. And that was limiting the tow capacity to the max the 5.0 can handle...because the Ecoboost can two so much more.

Ah, that tired old argument. Thought you said you understood the difference between turbo lag and torque managment when I explained it before, but...

... you keep stating opinons like this and I realize you really learn nothing. The large number of turbo cars/truck on the road today with 100s of thousands of miles on them be damned, huh?

Actually, I fully get the idea. That's why I thought his comment was so stupid. Go back to his first post and my comment. I simply pointed it looked like he contridicted himself and for some reason he got his feeling hurt. As many do, the have to bring out the old "but mine sounds better" argument. It's a matter of personal preference. I think if you buy a car for the V8 sound then why buy a Camaro? The Coyote engine sounds way better. If you are a GM boy then get the Z06. Sound like what you are saying? Does it have anything to do with him contraticting himself?

Camaros are inanimate objects, so I don't know if anything benefits them. However, it benefits GM by increasing sales of Camaros. If Ford goes global with an Ecoboost V6 Mustang (there are some rumors to that affect), then it will HURT Camaro sales if they don't have a product that will match performance and not get penalized with extra taxes.

Welcome to Global Economics.

It's really funny when people resort to the "he got his feelings hurt" line, guess it's just a last attempt at making oneself feel better. My feelings never got hurt sorry to disappoint you. And I'm not going to keep trying to make you understand what I was saying in my original post. If you can't figure it out then oh well not my problem. As for the sound issue you keep bringing up over and over, I never said that was the main reason I or anyone for that matter buys a V8 over a V6 I merely said it's one SMALL reason as my posts clearly says. Obviously our tastes differ which is fine, but there's no need to beat a dead horse over the subject.


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