GM needs to listen to the consumers more.
 

(Not that it applies to SS guys) But us V6 guys really got screwed when they rolled out the LFX engine and decided to integrate the exhaust manifold. Not having long tube headers is awful.

You certainly didn't see Ford taking away long tubes for the Mustang V6...

GM has been on a roll me thinks. Go GM go.

but...you do see them starting to phase out the V6 Mustang all together. although in this particular case the 2.3T should be an all around better performer than the 3.7

The 2.3T is designed to be a revived SVO Mustang. They're also going to revive the Mach 1 and have a GT350 instead of a GT500 supposedly... They want more models.

Actually the 2.3 is the base engine, everywhere in the world but in the US. we kept the 3.7 mostly for entry cost reasons and rental car fleets. and Ford has said they will not have a special name for the ecoboost model (e.g. no SVO tag).

as to the mach and gt350 there definitely is a SVT product in development. we'll see how that turns out.

/thread jack

The LFX not accepting headers is a bit of a bummer in some ways, but in reality I feel the LFX is an all around better and more mature version of the LLT.

LFX already starts with a HP advantage as it is . By the time you throw on high flow cats on the LFX versus LT headers on the LLT your basically even, if not still slighly ahead with the LFX.

Now add in the ability of the LFX to be tuned easier, along with reliability changes that were likely made to keep the timing chain from going out early and what not and I'd gladly take the LFX over my LLT (as long as i can keep my color lol)

The LFX is going to be phased out over the next year or two for what we hear is a new V6 called the "LGX". Not much information out about this engine yet.

Ford has chosen to use the turbo 4 as a base engine, and it will not get a new designated name over the base V6. Based on what I've read, the V6 may only last another year or two in the Mustang before you see it gone for good....unless the V6 sells better than Ford predicts.

As for GM, honestly I'll be a little surprised if they don't offer a turbo 4 as well, but I expect to see this next gen V6 in the 6th gen Camaro. I have a feeling this next gen V6 will be a very advanced engine, with all the goodies the LFX has (direct injection, cam phasing) along with cylinder shutoff and other fuel saving technology. I'd love to see a 3.6 - 3.8 liter V6 with all of the above technology. You could get great highway MPG with the cylinder shutoff, but then still be able to push 340 - 350HP with a decent displacement. Thats more HP than the stock turbo 4 will make, but I don't see any way the V6 could match the turbo 4 on low end torque.

A turbo 4 is hardly a replacement for a V6 in my opinion. They are just too rough.

Michael

And yet you bought one anyway. You're sending GM mixed messages.

All I know is it better be faster than any other V6 out there ,

I don't think the engineering of the LFX was a deliberate attempt to hurt V6 guys. There's a lot more that goes into engine design than whether enthusiasts will like it.

99% of the people who buy v6 Camaros won't be modding the engine. Plus it's GM's global V6 engine.

Yeah I don't see how adding more horsepower and making it more efficient could be a bad thing.

Wasn't the LFX head designed that way to simplify adding turbos? I'm pretty sure the LF3 turbo mounts directly to the heads.

Not saying they didn't have the LF3 in mind when the LFX made its debut...but it wasn't designed that way specifically for adding turbos. The exhaust outlets, along with other small changes from the LLT were made to improve airflow and efficiency. It resulted in a modest power bump and peak torque coming on a bit sooner.

The LF3 (the twin turbo you speak of) is pretty similar to the LFX in that it is derived from it, but the LF3 has many internal changes and uses lots of different external parts as well.

wrong, modded mine. I am getting a IPS Twin turbo setup, that will give any modded v8 muscle a run for its money (that is unless they are ridiculously modded with forced induction). I like to think of it as a modern muscle car using more efficiency and getting more mpgs. Also adding 11hp by adding an ingenious design to the LLT is a bad thing?

you're the 1%. eventually you'll give up and move to a V8. cut your losses now and move up. my bike runs stock low 10's... Camaros are slow. My 929CBR was $8k out the door... probably a drop in the bucket for all your mods that you'll never get your money back. but hey... it's your $$$$

And I'll use it how I want to :P Not a waste to me at all. I think bikes are a waste of money but to each his own, and don't compare bikes to cars. Car=whole different experience from bike. It is not all about speed. It's All about the fun that can be had. For some people bikes don't thrill them.

I think...in the case of a corporate V6 engine (which is what it is)...lower weight, increased power, and fuel economy won vs the "can the customer replace the manifolds" argument. :iono:


For what it's worth - the Camaro team listens to it's customers (and enthusiasts) more than many other car lines put together. You might be familiar with the disciples...or the company's presence at the Camaro5 Fest and many other shows.

They're constantly listening...as I'm sure they've read this thread already.

But they're not about to let the customers design or engineer the car. Because we have no idea what we're talking about in the big picture, and that results in an Aztek. :dizzy:

Also...careful what you ask for...Ford may still have manifolds on their V6, but that doesn't, inherently make it better. The two companies take wildly different approaches to the same problems. It's really very interesting.

You mean the 6th Gen won't have a microwave and mini fridge as an option for the passenger seat?

Randy you know Camaro rules say no eating in the Camaro :biggrin:

:rolleyes: lol

Just sayin, but only those in a constang pursuit of endless power would feel the need to move up from a properly done TT LFX to a V8. I know everyone says you can't ever have enough power, but in reality you need to hit a point somewhere...otherwise you'd better have deep pockets. I've seen a TT LFX outrun a cammed V8, so if you really want to move up, that means your looking at an FI V8.

Not sure how you can compare a bike to a car. Not really fair don't you think?

Let's be honest here...99% of the people that buy Camaros won't modify the engine regardless of how many cylinders hit has.

Your bike has a V8? WOW, I'd like to see it. J/K!

I was originally a little skeptical of the integrated exhaust manifolds, but now I think it is six of one/half dozen of another. It lowers weight and reduces manufacturing cost. You will probably never make the LFX sound as aggressive as an LLT with tuned headers, but you can get as much gain with a down pipe and high-flow cats on the LFX as headers and high-flow cats on a LLT. Given you start out with 11 hp more, that seems to be a plus if your goal is more power. If your goal is the most aggressive sounding V6 then yeah, it is a negative.

Never buy a V6
 

I am not knocking any guys that own a V6 but....as a senior who has been into cars for 50 years I tell every young person the only way to fly is the V8. If you don't have enough money to buy a new one, find a low mileage used one or save enough to get the V8.

Every car I ever bought was a V8 and yes I saved an extra couple years to get one. Sacrifice is a word young people need to get used to. Two jobs was a no brainer during my younger years raising a family and both me and my wife working those long hours.

When my daughter was looking for a modern muscle car it was between the Camaro SS, Mustang GT and Challenger 392. She test drove all three cars and decided on finding a Challenger online. Eventually after a year a leftover 2012 in the color combo she wanted was discounted $10k from Landmark Dodge in Morrow GA 700 miles away.

Last April 2013 the car was delivered. She saved and saved and yes saved and got the car of her dreams with a V8. Blue with silver stripes and its a true touring car.

So now you have the V6 and want some more performance. Get another job and pay the car off. Save for a V8. Sacrifice and waiting are two very important attributes in getting the car you really want not the one you settle on.

:facepalm:

I've been saving for my first car since I can remember. All the birthday money I ever got I always told my dad I'm going to buy a "cool" car when I was 16. Well, 16 came and I got a pretty decent car all things considered, but I knew I wanted better. So I saved ALL my money over the next year and a half from an awesome restaurant job I had and I bought a 2LT/RS camaro when I was 17 years old. My parents paid for the extended warranty as a graduation gift.

I by no means settled, there was actually a 1SS that they would have sold to me for less, but I prefer the 2 over the 1. Yes I would like a 2SS but that'll be down the road. If I always waited and saved up for the car I wanted I would never buy a car. When I had enough for a SS why not save more and buy a ZL1? When I get to that point whey should I waste the money on a ZL1 when I could get a SRT Jeep? When I get to jeep money, now I want a Porsche 911.....

with that avatar, you've lost all credibility :biggrin: points for creativity though :headbang:

Always love the threads where someone posts "why doesn't GM listen to us.......EVERYONE wants XYZ"

Just because you want doesn't mean everyone or even most or even some. But it does sound funny if you say "why won't GM listen to ME"

Dont know if they arnt tried of all the bickering, I Own a 2010 2LT/RS/GFX/INFERNO ORANGE MATELIC with Orange Interior.

I"ve personally added the cheverolet door seals;
Black out across trunck lid did the side gills, the Shifter boot for the automatic, And the Paddle Shifters. Added the Vararam Intake/ tuned /throttle body/RX Catch can
Bought the led Lights for the side makers and DRL's Then i finally got the Heritage Grill.and my car looks great. just need to get my exhaust tips on the car.

My hole point is they are lesting to thousands of people that have a love for the Camar
Could they have had pust button start? Yes they coud have buit the car anyway they have chosen,BUT thr built my Camaro Just like i needed it and for that I thank them.

But t he best part of being able to modifiey these camaros is fanststic;
Cheverolet door seals

Amen!
Everyone is different, that's why there isn't one model car that only comes one way. What driver A wants in a car driver B may not...
I don't want or need a V8 in my Camaro, I have been very happy with the V6's I have had in the 2 5th gens I have owned in the last 4 years.

Couldn't have said it better. To insinuate the Camaro team doesn't care or listen to the consumers is just ignorant.

That's nice. The V6 I got is quicker than most anything from back when you got into cars 50 years ago - what was fast then is still fast now (that we can go faster still is just particularly sweet icing on the affordable performance cake).

Also, the used Cessna I'm saving up for is far more important to me than a couple extra cylinders whose added performance will only rarely be used to their full potential - they're just not worth it. I did indeed save, and got exactly what I wanted. If the fact that I've modded my ride some since then means I didn't, well, there are a lot of V8 owners out there who've modded their cars when more powerful factory options existed - should they "get another job" too? If your daughter mods her Challenger even a little, does that mean she needs a lesson in patience and sacrifice so she could have afforded a Viper?

The point: unless you are the Thought Police and know others' individual decision making processes, save the lecture, and I won't pass judgement on your decisions if you don't pass ill-informed judgement on mine.

I did not read thru the entire thread (...but I will shortly - time's a bit tight...) but here are my thoughts on "GM needs to listen to their customers more" --

Show me one other brand in the entire industry that listens to their customers more........

Show me one other that has a group of 15 Disciples

Show me one other that constantly gets out and joins forums

Show me one other that sends people to dozens of shows each year


.....here's the problem: (S)

>some people think their idea is best - however, there are times when that idea conflicts directly with laws, or others' opinions' or cost constraints or engineering constraints

>no matter what we choose and who we listen to, there will always be someone who is dis-satisfied.

In the case of the LFX engine - keep in mind that it's a corp engine shared with other GM Brands -- few of which the owners care about what the engine components are made of.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

The fact that 5th gen was even built is a testament to "GM listening to its consumers more"... I guess people forget about the dark years...lol

I was posting a reply much in the same vein as Scotts post about a month and a half ago... I stopped midway through it b/c I felt (knew) that it would be like shooting spitballs at a tank.

Having said that, I agree 100% Mr. Settlemire, I am blown away by how much GM tries to listen.

We hear about the new super Camaro in the works and what is involved. The purists say, Were glad, but this shouldn't be a Z/28. Too heavy and the Z was never anything other than a hi rev track-focused car. How about calling it a ZL1 or a 1LE instead? BAM, we get a ZL1, 1LE soon after AND GM still followed through and gave the world the Z/28 we've been lusting over for last. No one expected that and most companies would have stood pat.

We cried about a bland blank interior, BAM, new updated interior for 2012.

We ask for nav and smartphone integration, BAM, 2013 MY sees MyLink std, nav available.

We create polls for a new medium-blue, BAM, new blue coming.

That's a small example but I think most logical people agree and understand. IMO GM probably listens a bit too much as it relates to Camaro for my tastes. You can't argue with the results though.

Camaro is one of the few car lines that isn't decontented while the price goes up and up. The way team Camaro @ GM has gone about doing business and the relationship with it's Camaro loyalists should be studied. Notice how Camaro has consistently beaten it's competition over the life of the 5th gen?

So long as GM focuses on this formula and continually listens to it's base, then I see no reason why Camaro should ever relinquish it's hold on the title of best selling car in the segment, but selling pony car in the world.

But we are going back to the dark ages. GM seems to stopped listening.

There are many of us that want pats on the restricted list and GM's exclusive crum is for the birds. I know there are people who will argue the other way but I believe there is enough of us that this is really irritating and who will buy some other vendor next time because of this. If GM thinks this is not a very big point in sales think again. The idea that I have to go by a z28 so all my friends that have a camaro and want parts can use my vin number under my name to get what they want is a frakin joke.

Gm is using collectible as a marketing ploy.. in what world does new and collectible really come together. IT DOES NOT unless... the number is so small and even then it is questionable.. A great example is the Shelby GT350 made a few years back. It is truly a great car but has dropped significantly in price and its numbers were way less then 500.

To this I say GM is greedy and has stopped listening.

^ See what I mean? Hopeless....